The Non-Aggression Principle Just Does Not Work

[thinkliberty]

This really is Barry.  I had to handle a few pressing things today so allow me until tomorrow to give my answer.  Thanks.

Barry

Did I miss this answer??  Can't seem to find it anywhere.

[John Edward Mercier]

Joey is claiming that the NAP doesn't work.  By saying that he doesn't want any part of the NAP, he's suggesting that he supports the initiation of force.  To support his claims, he's using what I think can best be described as a straw man argument.

There are two issues:

1. consent of a child
2. images of child pornography in other people's possession

At what age do you believe children can consent?
Below that age do you believe anything the child does at the request of another (other than a parent) that could be harmful is fraud?

If yes, what is your opinion about the dissemination of images of that fraudulent act involving a minor?

ehhh.
if the subject is still considered a ''child'', there should be no such fucking thing as ''consent'', where sexual exploitation is concerned.
that it needs to be spelled out for some people, IS the thing to be concerned about.
18, or over?
knock your tits off
maybe it's 16?
where does ''childhood'' end? certainly, in most peoples eyes, anyone under 18 is a child.

Laws on emancipation vary from State to State...
18 is used many times because States can not restrict someone that is 18 years of age from voting under the US Constitution.

[KBCraig]

At what age do you believe children can consent?

ehhh.
if the subject is still considered a ''child'', there should be no such fucking thing as ''consent'', where sexual exploitation is concerned.
that it needs to be spelled out for some people, IS the thing to be concerned about.
18, or over?
knock your tits off
maybe it's 16?
where does ''childhood'' end? certainly, in most peoples eyes, anyone under 18 is a child.

Welcome to the point.

[ByronB]

Personally, I keep far away from anything that could be considered "making a move" on anyone less then 18... but what about our great-great-grandparents, I know for a fact some of them already had two kids before the mother was 15! What has changed between now and then?

[J’raxis 270145]

Personally, I keep far away from anything that could be considered "making a move" on anyone less then 18... but what about our great-great-grandparents, I know for a fact some of them already had two kids before the mother was 15! What has changed between now and then?

Public school system. John Taylor Gatto goes into detail in his books about the public schools, how they've infantalized the adult (or what should be considered "adult") population of this country.

[Russell Kanning]

I have to agree with a pacifist friend of mine, that those who rely on force, and only force, even defensive, usually put less effort in trying to avoid the conflict in the first place. 

I dunno about that. Suggesting that people who believe in defensive force are more likely to look for trouble is a bit of a generalization, don't you think?

but it seem to be true

[AnCapMan]

I have to agree with a pacifist friend of mine, that those who rely on force, and only force, even defensive, usually put less effort in trying to avoid the conflict in the first place. 

I dunno about that. Suggesting that people who believe in defensive force are more likely to look for trouble is a bit of a generalization, don't you think?

but it seem to be true

I don't know if it's true at all. I believe in using force only for defense. I am 30 years 7 months and 24 days old. I have been in exactly "0" fights. And it's not like I always lived in a small town. I grew up in very bad neighborhoods of San Diego. And moved to Pittsburgh PA just 3 years ago. I have been attacked 2 times but nothing came of either of them as the criminal knew I was willing to defend my self. Had a knife pulled on me when I was 17 by 3 Mexican gangsters. I just got into my car they followed and I gunned the engine they all backed away save the one who was trying to break my driver side window and ran over one of his  feet. I was attempted to be mugged a little over a year ago by some strung out dude and I just pulled my pistol and he ran off. But I have yet to inflict harm on another intentionally nor has anyone inflicted physical harm on me. So I think the willingness to use force only in defense works perfectly.

[AnCapMan]

As for age of consent their is no set age. I believe one to be an adult when they understand present actions = future consequences. The one thing that separates children from adults. Some people might be 14. Others and their are examples everywhere never become adults. I do know their is a non sexual example here in my area. A kid of 12 years killed his fathers wife. He shot her in the head with a shotgun while she slept before he and his sister went to school. Yet this dumb state is charging him with murder 1 as an adult. Could spend the rest of his life in prison. He has no future sentience. Gov likes to have it both ways. Try kids as adults and try adults who sleep with 17 year olds.

[ByronB]

Personally, I keep far away from anything that could be considered "making a move" on anyone less then 18... but what about our great-great-grandparents, I know for a fact some of them already had two kids before the mother was 15! What has changed between now and then?

Public school system. John Taylor Gatto goes into detail in his books about the public schools, how they've infantalized the adult (or what should be considered "adult") population of this country.

Hmmm, cool, I think I might read one of his books...

[dalebert]

where does ''childhood'' end? certainly, in most peoples eyes, anyone under 18 is a child.

Mother Nature disagrees. There is a huge discrepancy between law books and biology books. Biology defines creatures as adults when they're physically capable of reproduction.

[John Edward Mercier]

Even in the law books its very vague with several different ages represented in various behaviors.

[AntonLee]

I have to agree with a pacifist friend of mine, that those who rely on force, and only force, even defensive, usually put less effort in trying to avoid the conflict in the first place. 

I dunno about that. Suggesting that people who believe in defensive force are more likely to look for trouble is a bit of a generalization, don't you think?

but it seem to be true

I truly believe that you should be able to, and should be able to defend yourself.  I hope more than anything that I never have to shoot another human being ever.

[Recumbent ReCycler]

Joey is claiming that the NAP doesn't work.  By saying that he doesn't want any part of the NAP, he's suggesting that he supports the initiation of force.  To support his claims, he's using what I think can best be described as a straw man argument.

There are two issues:

1. consent of a child
2. images of child pornography in other people's possession

At what age do you believe children can consent?
Below that age do you believe anything the child does at the request of another (other than a parent) that could be harmful is fraud?

If yes, what is your opinion about the dissemination of images of that fraudulent act involving a minor?

Hmm, I don't think you got my point.  The issue is whether or not we should follow the NAP.  Joey claimed that the NAP doesn't work and rejected it as a principle, using the strawman argument of child porn.  That is a separate issue, unrelated to the NAP.

My answer to your first question is this: I don't know.  I don't think that it is above the age of 18.
My answer to your second question is this: Maybe.  That is a pretty broad question.  I don't think I can imagine all of the possibilities that could be included in that question.
Your conditional question is also very broad.
I have a simple solution to that conundrum when it comes to my own behavior.  I don't disseminate any images that portray anything that is done by a child under the age of 18 at the request of another that could be harmful.  I also don't ask any children to do anything that could be harmful.  I also try to avoid anything that could be misconstrued as such.  Some suggestions that I would make to help you avoid such a moral dilemma are these.  Don't produce, view or disseminate anything that might be considered pornography.  Don't ask children to do anything that might be dishonest, fraudulent or harmful.

Following the NAP does not mean that you will aggress against someone who has initiated violence.  It means that you will not initiate violence.  The straw-man argument that was used by Joey, then repeated by you, is irrelevant to the practice of the NAP.  If someone didn't initiate violence, force or fraud, then don't do those things to them.  If they did initiate violence, force or fraud, then you will have to decide what to do about it, if anything, but then if you do something, you're not initiating violence, force or fraud, so the NAP doesn't prevent a reaction.  Many times definitions won't be easy to determine, but that doesn't make the principle of the NAP void.  If you want to talk about the definition of child porn and what should be done about it, make that the subject of the thread and focus on that.  Don't try to refute a totally unrelated subject by using a straw-man argument that may be divisive.

[zackbass]

I have a simple solution to that conundrum when it comes to my own behavior.  I don't disseminate any images that portray anything that is done by a child under the age of 18 at the request of another that could be harmful.  I also don't ask any children to do anything that could be harmful.

Consider soccer.

[grasshopper]

  Now, may we move on to a similar topic, like the one that we are discussing now? 
  How about passive violence? 
  I see a LOT of that here, people sending digs to piss people off, kind of like this thread, or parts of it.
  If somebody threatens somebody, or insults one of the people here on this forum, should we engage them in counter violence by insulting them, or questioning their comments with thinly veiled threats??
  We as humans thrive on conversation, what says you guys n gals?
  Is an insult an assault?