Census Civil Disobedience

[vexer]

"Replace planning with a free market. Much more fair and efficient."

Are you saying that the Free Market doesn't Plan, based on Census information?

Are you saying that customer information isn't the life-blood of Capitalism?

Are you saying that the less you know, the more money you'll make?

[Lloyd Danforth]

The free market gets it's demographic information through voluntary cooperation.

[John Edward Mercier]

What about the idea that the more you know about an area's population,
The better you can plan for it's needs?

You need to know how many school kids are in an area, to plan schools, busses. Old people, health care. Traffic, police, Etc.

In most countries, a Census is an essential civil planing tool.

By resisting a census, you're resisting better civil planning.


I just hope you then don't complain about bad government civil planning.

This is actually impossible in the US because of our mobility.

[Pat McCotter]

"Replace planning with a free market. Much more fair and efficient."

Are you saying that the Free Market doesn't Plan, based on Census information?

Are you saying that customer information isn't the life-blood of Capitalism?

Are you saying that the less you know, the more money you'll make?

Sorry, vexer. It should have been "Replace central planning with a free market."

The Soviet Union showed the world what central planning does to a country.

We don't need, or even want, the government telling us what they want done. We, as individual human beings, decide what we want to do. The free market uses non-coercive means to determine how to satisfy those desires.

[vexer]

I just laugh at you, having people, with guns (apparently) warding off people who are trying to help you.

"The Government is the Enemy". That'd be the people *I* chose to be the government.

[John Edward Mercier]

And in a Pure Democracy you would be correct.
But as Pat has stated the US is not a Pure Democracy... its a Republic with the use of indirect democracy.

[Ogre]

vexer, you appear to be new here. If you are honestly suggesting that you want others to believe "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you," you're in the wrong place.

I think most people here understand that government is about power and control, whether you claim to be the government or not. Most people here realize that every single government action, no matter how small, is backed with the threat of violence including involuntary imprisonment or death. Yes, if you do not pay a parking ticket, you may be killed by this government, and those in this government who carry out such actions will have no problem saying they were just doing their job.

As for the census, and the points you mentioned, here's a couple examples of how they would work in a free country:

Schools:
Schools would not be run by the government. Instead, they would be run by people who wanted to build them. Other people who wanted to have their children educated would pay people to build the schools. In a free market, schools don't take 10 years to build. Instead, they take less than one year. Free schools can sign up students for the next year and know if they need another building. They don't need 10-year plans based on faulty government data that is subject to change depending on political bosses and politics. And best of all, people would be free to choose whatever type of education they wanted for their children, instead of being forced, at gunpoint, to accept the government-run, government-based schools of today. And yes, there would be plenty of schools for those who are "poor." I know because I would start a school for such people tomorrow if government would let me, and I know lots of others who would, too.

Roads:
Even if government provided roads, if we had a government that was responsive to the people instead of the government we have today that sees as its primary goal to tell people what to do, they wouldn't need any census data. They could simply observe the roads and observe the buildings and decide when to create larger, wider, or other types of roads. Most governments today instead want to tell people where to live (and do so with so-called "zoning" and "planning boards") instead of letting people be free, and then providing services based on what choices that people make.

Trust me, freedom works, every time its tried. It just hasn't been tried in America in over 50 years.

[Pat McCotter]

Roads:
Even if government provided roads, if we had a government that was responsive to the people instead of the government we have today that sees as its primary goal to tell people what to do, they wouldn't need any census data. They could simply observe the roads and observe the buildings and decide when to create larger, wider, or other types of roads. Most governments today instead want to tell people where to live (and do so with so-called "zoning" and "planning boards") instead of letting people be free, and then providing services based on what choices that people make.

Trust me, freedom works, every time its tried. It just hasn't been tried in America in over 50 years.

And it doesn't need to be just roads. Somebody could decide that freight could be moved between cities more efficiently by rail. They would raise money and negotiate for land to build it. If successful at this, then they would need to workg to keep it successful against other competing methods of transport - non-coercively.

Again, no central planning to decide this, but a market of individuals deciding for themselves what they are willing and able to pay for.

[bigmike]

"Replace planning with a free market. Much more fair and efficient."

Are you saying that the Free Market doesn't Plan, based on Census information?

Are you saying that customer information isn't the life-blood of Capitalism?

Are you saying that the less you know, the more money you'll make?

The market reacts, it doesn't plan. The opinions of a few that are responsible for the planning isn't done to anticipate future needs, it's done to control the outcome.

I don't know that I'd go as far to say that customer information is the lifeblood of capitalism. Demographic and Psychographic data are more likely to be the lifeblood of marketing.

[vexer]

(I apologise for my "laugh at you" comment, that was rude and asking-for-it).




John, if it's not clear, I use the term 'democracy' simply to mean 'rule by the people' in its general sense.



"Ogre"
If you are honestly suggesting that you want others to believe "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you," you're in the wrong place.

Heh, no, I'm not suggesting that. (Well, maybe the 'help you part'). (You think I'm "from the government"?)

(I know I'm in the wrong place, in any case).

No, to me the most interesting thing about the American psyche is how you can talk all day about freedom and Democracy, while at the  same time hate those two things.


I think most people here understand that government is about power and control...  ... power and control that you vote for. You (in theory) control.

Your don't vote for what Exxon, Wal-Mart or Chevron does, and they have the real power and control. And you want to give them more. You want to give up more of your liberty to share-holders (who don't think highly of you).

How is it 'freedom' to be controlled by entities you have no say about?

[bigmike]

Vexer I don't think you're in the wrong place. Reading posts on this forum may help change how you look at things.

You said people talk about freedom and democracy and, at the same time, hate it. You'd be hard pressed to find people here that hate freedom and liberty. There are some statists that troll on these forums and they would likely fit into the category of people that talk about wanting freedom without truly understanding the meaning of the word. They want their version of freedom forced on everyone else.

As for democracy, by it's true meaning that was already pointed out, I'm not sure you'll find many people here that favor it either.

You also made the comment "power and control that we vote for". I don't vote because I don't know where I would get the moral authority to force my views on others. If you like candidate A because of a certain policy that candidate wants to implement should people that disagree with that policy be forced to comply with it? I'm all in favor of you picking who you want to lead you and, by all means, if you favor a particular policy that your candidate implements you should comply with it.

But as things stand now, if I disagree I am forced to comply. If I resist I am punished and, depending on my level of resistance, may be killed for resisting. That's not freedom. That's not liberty. That's enslavement.

I think you answer your own questions without realizing it. Toward the end of your last post you ask "how is it freedom to be controlled by the entities you have no say about?" With Exxon or Wal Mart my say comes from my ability to choose to do business with them. Wal Mart doesn't put a gun to my head to force me to shop there. Can you say the same thing about government?

[vexer]

Mike, that's as serious and well-intended response as ever I've gotten.


You said people talk about freedom and democracy and, at the same time, hate it.

But they seem to agree to dis-own "democracy?



...talk about wanting freedom without truly understanding the meaning of the word... 

Honestly, I am trying to understand what you think this means.


I don't vote because I don't know where I would get the moral authority to force my views on others.

Mike, explain how anarchy could work?

[Lloyd Danforth]

Will somebody who can check out this guy's ISP?  I think this is a case of RIS.

[bigmike]

Will somebody who can check out this guy's ISP?  I think this is a case of RIS.

What's RIS?

[CJS]

What about the idea that the more you know about an area's population,
The better you can plan for it's needs?

You need to know how many school kids are in an area, to plan schools, busses. Old people, health care. Traffic, police, Etc.

In most countries, a Census is an essential civil planing tool.

By resisting a census, you're resisting better civil planning.


I just hope you then don't complain about bad government civil planning.

   How about it is none of the federal governments  business?  The census was  for designating representation ,  no more no less .this is another well thought out play at gathering even more power at the fed level. ( I thought the talk of succession was retarded when I started sniffing around here , now I see its really the unions only hope)

   My LOCALLY  elected officials have the responsibility for determining all the needs you mention . By requesting this info they are violating MY rights and FWIW .. this is my line in the sand , no more .. what ever the cost.

  Have you even read the questionnaire ? The questions are positively ridiculous and beyond invasive ... what time I leave my home for work ?? they can F*** off ( sorry KAT ) . The requested info is so private my blood relatives would not ask this of me .. where do the bureaucrats get the idea they have any right to ask ? it is surreal and frightening !!!!!


  And last ..Socialism does not work .. never has and never will , and that is what you describe by saying the federal government NEEDS this info to plan our lives


BTW you have a suitable user name

     vex  (vks)
tr.v. vexed, vex·ing, vex·es
1. To annoy, as with petty opportunities; bother. See Synonyms at annoy. 
2. To cause perplexity in; puzzle.
3. To bring distress or suffering to; plague or afflict.
4. To debate or discuss (a question, for example) at length.
5. To toss about or shake up.

  I hope you read enough of the ideas talked about here to come to the same realization I have .... your either part of the problem or part of the solution ..... for now I consider you a troll