Civil Obedience

[dalebert]

A note he shared on Facebook. I know a lot of people here aren't on Facebook so...

I have to run to FIJA but I'll comment later.

My latest police contact
by Rich Paul
Today at 6:33am
I had contact with the Manchester Police today.

I was pulled over when re-entering Manchester from Social Sunday.

When pulled over, I rolled my window all the way down, and placed my hands on the steering wheel. I informed the officer that I was licensed to carry a concealed weapon, and that I had a revolver in a holster on my right hip. I informed him of this before I removed my hands from the steering wheel.

The officer informed me that my tags were expired. He was correct. After calling in, he said that South Carolina had suspended my license for failure to comply with a ticket. I showed him the clearance form I had received when paying this ticket, and he confirmed that the suspension date on my document matched the date SC claimed to have suspended my license.

He had a bit of trouble locating the serial number on my weapon, but he eventually did. He returned it, and both he and his partner complimented me on the weapon (for those who haven't met me in person, I am joined at the hip to a Smith and Wesson 686 .357 Magnum).

We talked a bit about the economic crisis. He agreed with my statement that "the rest of the country is screwed".

And I went about my business with no ticket. He did suggest that I update my drivers' license.

The net effect of my being polite? I am left with more time and money to work towards liberty. The cops in question are left with a good impression of a free stater which might make a difference in his mind if and when he is given an order to fire on a protest. And I got a chance to talk about liberty to people who are in the thick of the fight every day.

The opportunity cost: I lost the opportunity to bolster my ego by being rude to somebody who was in a position where he could not respond rudely to rudeness. I lost the opportunity to annoy and harass a guy who was trying to earn a living. And I lost an opportunity to get a ticket and whine about it.

It was a good trade.

[Lloyd Danforth]

He's not earning a living.

[Russell Kanning]

boy ... I agree with that Lloyd guy a lot

what that cop was doing was not voluntarily interacting with others

[Ryan McGuire]

The net effect of my being polite? I am left with more time and money to work towards liberty.

Umm.. as if you wouldn't have been advancing liberty if you had not complied with the officer's every wish?

I'm all for being polite. But, only in polite company.

[dalebert]

And I went about my business with no ticket. He did suggest that I update my drivers' license.

The net effect of my being polite? I am left with more time and money to work towards liberty. The cops in question are left with a good impression of a free stater which might make a difference in his mind if and when he is given an order to fire on a protest. And I got a chance to talk about liberty to people who are in the thick of the fight every day.

OK, I have several thoughts about this incident and your conclusions.

First off, I'm going to choose a different word than "polite" because of the strongly implied mis-characterization of someone else's behavior who may choose to act differently as "rude" when I would simply describe it as standing up for your rights. Rather than "polite", I would describe your behavior as "obedient". I won't even say "cooperative" because that implies that you and another person are working together toward some shared goal. This is simply a case of someone issuing you commands and you are deciding to obey. Now, that said, I think obeying is not necessarily a bad choice depending on the circumstances and what exactly is being requested or demanded of you but I'll go into that more.

For instance, I think keeping your hands on the wheel and informing the person that you're armed was a good choice. We know these people can be prone to confrontation and violence and that's just diffusing the potential and making it clear you're a peaceful person and no threat. I disagree with your decision to roll your window all the way down and here's why. Your car is your personal property and cracking the window sufficiently for communication is completely in compliance with THEIR laws and in accordance with your own rights, even in the unreasonably limited form as they define them. I think you should, as a minimum, partake of every right that they define. It is common practice for a cop to use that opportunity to lean close or even stick his head into your car and smell for an illegal substance. You may say that's fine because you don't have an illegal substance in your car but that's not the point. I never do either. The point is the cop's get used to pushing people as far as they can through intimidation and they get distorted notions of what is "okay" for them to do. We need to draw clear boundaries for them and get them used to staying within those boundaries and respecting the rights of innocent people. Later some teenagers who may have some illegal substance in their car are likely to get profiled by the same cop and he will attempt to intimidate them into lowering their window so he can get a flimsy excuse to search their car. You're not being impolite by not rolling your window down all the way. You are asserting your private property rights and you are not breaking any of their laws by so doing.

Now, I also think you are jumping to conclusions by saying that you avoided a ticket by being obedient. I've been pulled over twice in NH for what some would call "routine stops". I didn't get tickets either time. You not getting a ticket can be the result of a number of factors-- the severity of the "offense" that led to the stop, the mood of the cop at the time, how much of a pushover they think you are based on your behavior, etc. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that standing up for your rights at every opportunity stands a better chance of helping you avoid a ticket. That's been my personal experience since in NH and I've heard cases of others that leads me to the same conclusion, but of course it's always a gamble. I can't speak for any particular incident or cop. Kissing boot might work in some situations.

I'm all for avoiding tickets whenever possible, and for good reason. Due to my principles, if I get a ticket, I will refuse to pay it and I'll go to jail rather than fund the state through their extortion racket. That's why I drive like a granny. I was going about 10 or 11 miles over the speed limit each time which is the uppermost limit for me, the second time under complicating circumstances. The cop was standing by the edge of the road in dark clothing and distracting blue lights on the other side of the street made him hard to see and I almost grazed him. Both times, I was not rude and I complied with the law but I was not overly obedient either. I lowered by window about two inches and denied requests to lower it further. I avoided referring to the cop with a respectful title ("officer"), though the first time I slipped and accidentally called him that (old habits die hard) after the incident was over and he was letting me go about my business. To do so would violate my own principles as a voluntaryist since I do not respect the title and authority given to them by the state. I obey them to the extent that I am required by their laws which I realize is a compromise on my part but it's a matter of me picking my battles.

I don't think you should answer any questions that you aren't required by law to answer. It's not rude to demand your privacy. It's actually rude on the cop's part to be prying into things that are irrelevant to the stop and they're likely fishing for additional offenses or for evidence that can be used against you should you decide to challenge any charges. Again, even if you strongly feel that's not the case on your stop and you think they're just making conversation, asserting your rights helps remind them of boundaries they need to be consistently respecting.

The opportunity cost: I lost the opportunity to bolster my ego by being rude to somebody who was in a position where he could not respond rudely to rudeness. I lost the opportunity to annoy and harass a guy who was trying to earn a living. And I lost an opportunity to get a ticket and whine about it.

There's an awful lot of implied mis-characterization in this statement. I don't know of anyone who wants to annoy and harass someone else, but the cop is not earning a living. They are being rewarded for violating the rights of innocent people. You may look on your stop in a positive way and be grateful that you got off without a ticket. I look at what is being termed a "routine stop" and I find that disturbing. This common practice of pulling people over for some extremely minor offense just so they can run a check on your papers and make sure you're all squared away before they let you get on with your personal business is a guilty-until-proven-innocent approach. This is why they are no longer peace officers. They are law enforcers now. You're glad you didn't get a ticket but I'm offended that they're harassing clearly innocent people who are driving safely, ordering them around, making them take some of their personal time to show their papers before they can get on with their peaceful lives. To say they're earning a living says that they are doing something productive and useful to civilized society and that's simply not the case with so-called "routine stops".

[Mike Barskey]

I posted these comments under Rich's note in Facebook:

I agree with what Jeremy said here in comments, and with what Dale and some others wrote at the thread Dale pointed to. I think it's good you didn't get a citation, Rich, and that each one of us must decide what type of response is good for us to take, and that situations will differ even for ourselves at different times in our lives. I have no problem with how you dealt with the police, although I would have probably done something differently.

But I do have a problem with your "opportunity cost" paragraph. It reeked of condescension and rudeness (to me, and possibly to other people who would react differently than you did).

"...by being rude to somebody who was in a position where he could not respond rudely to rudeness." You think cops cannot respond rudely? I have personally experienced cops *initiating* conversations rudely, in addition to responding rudely to both rude and non-rude people.

"...to annoy and harass a guy who was trying to earn a living." Do you think that defending my right to privacy is *harassing* someone who is abusing their position of power to try to invade my privacy? And if I do it in a calm, polite manner but the cop calls me "animated" and upset and rude in court, does that make it so? And what is wrong with annoying someone? I'm *not* suggesting this is a good tactic to take in life, but if you are doing something peaceful - like defending your privacy - and someone else gets annoyed by that, should you stop doing it? I'm certain that a thug trying to harm you would be annoyed by being shot by you in self defense; should you not then defend yourself?

"...to get a ticket and whine about it." Whining, to me, implies complaining about something without doing anything about it. Is that what you think that I (and people who respond like I do) do? Do we get assaulted by govt and then whine about getting assaulted and then do nothing? Or do we try to defend ourselves in court? Or do we try to point out in court that the "crime" was not a crime in the first place (i.e., was victimless)? Or do we make videos and try to educate the public? Or do we publicize the event to try to entice other freedom-lovers, like yourself and me, to move to NH? Or do we discuss the incident and our experiences and try to learn how to better handle them next time?

I also have a problem with your calling the previous examples "opportunity costs." This, too, sounds condescending. An opportunity cost is the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen. You are stating that all these negative things (being rude, harassing, and whining) are the opportunity costs (i.e., the *good* things) that you lost by choosing to react as you did. That is sarcastic and, in my opinion, rude.

[antijingoist]

I'm of the opinion that there are many ways to advance liberty, and it depends on the person and situation. Some people operate better making chit-chat and being very nice to an officer. Good for them. Some people push envelopes and that works for them. Good for them.

When in Pensacola, we had a protest where we held a large US flag upside down in the main square. There were people that were furious, but it gave us the opportunity to share our ideas with marines in the area. These people would have never come over otherwise, and after understanding what we stood for, even offered to burn the flag. After the event however, the group was paralyzed by complaining and bickering about who held the flag upside down, why it was the wrong tactic, why it was the right tactic, and I think they are still discussing it (at least when I left they still were)!

Point is that different tactics are going to attract different people in different ways. Not everyone comes from the same background; some need to be shaken to be woken up, while others only need their name called out softly. I was inspired to move up here by the civil disobedience, though I may not use that approach too often, and may even do something similar to what Rich is doing. Who knows? I have not been stopped yet.

[John Edward Mercier]

Stopped for tags.
Pretty much guilty... the tags are so they don't have to stop every vehicle and check the paperwork.

The question of liberty is more along the necessity to register a motorized vehicle as opposed to a non-motorized.

[cxxguy]

Stopped for tags.
Pretty much guilty... the tags are so they don't have to stop every vehicle and check the paperwork.

The question of liberty is more along the necessity to register a motorized vehicle as opposed to a non-motorized.

I would tend to agree, and god knows I'd support it if there were a serious push to eliminating vehicle registration.  However, my new neighbors, even in New Hampshire, wouldn't.

[cxxguy]

As for the gun, anybody who's talked to me at Porcfest knows that if you ask to see my weapon, and you seem a trustworthy sort, I'll hand it over and let you check it out.  I've never had anybody note the number when I have done so, but I can't think of a reason for objecting if they did.  I didn't actually find out where my serial number was until last night, so I don't know if anybody's looked at it in the past.

And I guess that is the point to me:  I treat a cop as I would treat anybody else.  If he asks a question, and I would answer that question for the guy who sold me my gas, I'll answer it.  If he asks a question, and I would *not* answer that question for the guy who sold me my gas, I'll ask myself "is there a *legal* reason I should override my inclination".  If neither inclination nor statute suggest that I should answer the question, then I start thinking about Miranda (not the planet, the decision) and lawyers.

[TackleTheWorld]

Dude, if anyone is going to demand your gun, kidnap you, and steal your money it's the police.

What is the gun for if not to defend yourself?

[Russell Kanning]

im with Lauren ... that gun seems like a dangerous expensive toy that gets you in trouble with the thugs ... if you are not going to use it against them ... but I might not understand all the intricacies of the gun culture

[Giggan]

Wait, so he checked the serial number?

Did he run it or just check to see that it wasn't scratched off?

Either way, I don't see how he had probable cause to do either. If you showed him your CCL or he verified that you had one, the gun itself is none of his business, and he had no reason to touch it.

Keep in mind, in checking the gun, he's looking for a reason to throw you in the back of his car. Yes, kissing ass can get you out of a ticket, but it's not always getting you anywhere. I don't say be rude, but at least don't make it easy for them.

EDIT: Probable cause, not probably cause 

[Russell Kanning]

they consider it rude if you are not very very cooperative

[Lloyd Danforth]

im with Lauren ... that gun seems like a dangerous expensive toy that gets you in trouble with the thugs ... if you are not going to use it against them ... but I might not understand all the intricacies of the gun culture

Part of it is discrimination. Many in the gun culture believe shooting a cop is excessive for a temporary kidnapping.