Armed defense?

[Kat Kanning]

Molon Labe is an expression of the right to defend ones life.

I agree.  Defend one's life against who:  the government who might take away your guns.  How:  by using said guns.  Is this really what you want to are willing to do?  How come none of you answer this question? 

[leetninja]

This is the kind of questioning I would expect to come from a statist, fed, or other government thug in an attempt to make the right to keep and bear arms look like an extremist nut-job view. Molon Labe is an expression of the right to defend ones life.

Defending one's life from the government, you mean?  Because they're the ones who "come and take them."  So you'd be shooting cops or US soldiers - they'd be the ones to come and take your guns. 

You guys throw around phrases like molon labe without really thinking about what you're saying.  "Over my dead body" and "from my cold dead hands" are other examples.  I'm just pointing out what you're saying actually means:  "if the government comes to take away my guns I will shoot them."  I have no interest in making you look like a whack job.  You guys are the ones saying these things.  I'm guessing you don't really mean it.  Do you?  If you don't mean it, why do you say it?  If you do mean it, why do you all seem to be upset by my questions?

ok i really cant believe this is coming from a member of this board.  unless i am mistaken we support gun owners and their rights to bear arms do we not?  I cant believe this is the direction that this has gone in.  I am actually VERY disappointed in this ...

Molon Labe quite simply means to me at least that if someone, anyone, tries to take away my 2nd amendment rights that I will not be a willing participant.  i.e. if tomorrow Obama decides to pass a "law" stating that all American citizens are to turn in any and all firearms by sunset next Friday, I will not comply.  If he then sends someone, anyone, plural or not, to come and TAKE them from me then I will still not comply.  Would you?

"Come and take them" is a statement of defiance.  "You can't take what is mine and not yours!" and "You cant steal from me!" would be similar.  Not the variations you have come up with here. 

Do you know the story of The 300 or Sparta? 

Actual and REAL History:

Molon Labe was reportedly the defiant response of King Leonidas I of Sparta to Xerxes I of Persia at the onset of the Battle of Thermopylae (480 BC). Xerxes, whose forces vastly outnumbered the Spartans and their allies, offered to spare the lives of Leonidas and his few thousand warriors if they would only surrender and lay down their weapons.

Instead, the Spartans held Thermopylae for three days and, although they were ultimately annihilated, they inflicted serious damage upon the Persian army, and most importantly delayed its progress to Athens, providing sufficient time for the city's evacuation to Salamis Island. Though a clear defeat, Thermopylae served as a moral victory and inspired the troops at the Battle of Salamis and the Battle of Plataea.

The source for this quotation is Plutarch, Apophthegmata Laconica, 225c.11. This work may or may not be by Plutarch (ca. 46 - 127) himself, but it is included among the Moralia, a collection of works attributed to him but outside the collection of his most famous works, the Parallel Lives.

Modern usage:

Molon labe has been repeated by many later generals and politicians in order to express an army's or nation's determination to not surrender. The motto Molon Labe is on the emblem of the Greek First Army Corps, and is also the motto of United States Special Operations Command Central (SOCCENT).

In the Anglosphere, both the original Greek phrase and its English translation are often heard from pro-gun activists as a defence of the right to keep and bear arms. It began to appear on pro-RKBA web sites in the late 1990s and early 2000s. In the wake of firearm seizures during Hurricane Katrina and the subsequent defiance of Federal court orders by the New Orleans government to return seized weapons, the phrase has again gained popularity among Second Amendment supporters.

Molon labe has been recently used in the 2007 feature film 300 in which Leonidas speaks this famous line in English in response to "Spartans! Lay down your weapons!" as "Persians! Come and get them!" In the 1999 comic book of the same name, upon which the film is based, the phrase becomes "Come and get it", with no exchange concerning the laying down of arms.[5] In the earlier 1962 film The 300 Spartans Leonidas says the phrase both in Greek and English to the Persian general Hydarnes. The same exchange contains Dienekes' remark about "fighting in the shade" (as Persian arrows would "blot out the sun"), assigned to Leonidas.

[Kat Kanning]

Whether or not you are going to shoot the government agents who come to take your guns is an important question to me.  It'd be nice to know if the guy standing next to you at a party or rally or such is going to start shooting if the gov't starts confiscating guns.  I don't think we can win a violent revolution against the US government.  I don't think it's RIGHT to use violence to get what we want. Too many innocent people die.  I want to use peaceful means.  Maybe your molon labe phrase has nothing to do with revolution or why we're all here together.  But then why use the porcupine in the picture?  

[leetninja]

I would also infer that the phrase is a statement that provides a choice to those who wish to steal guns or whatever from the person who displays it.  The choice is either to:

1) violate the property rights of the person in an attempt to commit theft of a person's belongings and while doing so open themselves up to righteous protection initiatives by the victim

OR

2)  Mind your own business, Don't Steal, Stay Away, Do the Right thing.

exactly.  spouting off about intent mine or others being "shooting cops/government employees" or ANYONE for that matter bringing those topics into the situation is ridiculous.  it wasnt said it wasnt implied.  dont you defend your rights - isnt that one of the probably many reasons you are on this board and a member of the FSP and NHUnderground?

[Kat Kanning]

Molon Labe quite simply means to me at least that if someone, anyone, tries to take away my 2nd amendment rights that I will not be a willing participant.  i.e. if tomorrow Obama decides to pass a "law" stating that all American citizens are to turn in any and all firearms by sunset next Friday, I will not comply.  If he then sends someone, anyone, plural or not, to come and TAKE them from me then I will still not comply.  Would you?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking.  Would I not comply if the gov't came to take my guns?  I wouldn't hand them over willingly.  I wouldn't shoot them over it.

"Come and take them" is a statement of defiance.  "You can't take what is mine and not yours!" and "You cant steal from me!" would be similar.  Not the variations you have come up with here. 

Are they empty statements of defiance?  Maybe you could describe what you would do if they came to take your guns?  I'm not sure what you mean by saying you wouldn't comply.

Do I think that you should be able to own guns?  Yes.  I thought the intent of the Second Amendment was as a last resort to protect oneself from the government.  Do I think this is a good strategy for the Free State Project (since you brought the porcupine into it) - absolutely not.  Was this not the intent of the Second Amendment?  If so, why are you so unwilling to say whether or not this is what you meant by molon labe?

I answered your question.  How about answering mine?  Would you shoot US cops/soldiers who came to take away your guns?

[Kat Kanning]

1) violate the property rights of the person in an attempt to commit theft of a person's belongings and while doing so open themselves up to righteous protection initiatives by the victim

OR

2)  Mind your own business, Don't Steal, Stay Away, Do the Right thing.

What does "righteous protection" by the victim mean?   Are you saying it doesn't mean protecting yourself with that gun?  If so, what is the gun for?

exactly.  spouting off about intent mine or others being "shooting cops/government employees" or ANYONE for that matter bringing those topics into the situation is ridiculous.  it wasnt said it wasnt implied.  dont you defend your rights - isnt that one of the probably many reasons you are on this board and a member of the FSP and NHUnderground?

What does "defending your rights" include?  How far do you go to defend your rights?

Do you think violent revolution is the way to go with the Free State Project?

[leetninja]

Whether or not you are going to shoot the government agents who come to take your guns is an important question to me.  It'd be nice to know if the guy standing next to you at a party or rally or such is going to start shooting if the gov't starts confiscating guns.  I don't think we can win a violent revolution against the US government.  I don't think it's RIGHT to use violence to get what we want. Too many innocent people die.  I want to use peaceful means.  Maybe your molon labe phrase has nothing to do with revolution or why we're all here together.  But then why use the porcupine in the picture?  

Again, cant believe a member of this board is taking this in this direction but oh well ...

so ...

if someone tried to unlawfully steal my gun - a tyrant such as Xerxes or Hitler or WHOEVER, I would rather defend myself than blindly comply.  I would hope that there would be people intelligent enough to back me up on that decision.  

The American Revolution was something that happened because it had to.  At least they had the foresight to give us the right to bear arms in order to prevent tyranny.  I believe Ron Paul said it best:  "The Second amendment is not about hunting deer or keeping a pistol in your nightstand. It is not about protecting oneself against common criminals. It is about preventing tyranny."


As for why use the procupine - because we are porcupines - i believe someone posted once the reason the porcupine was chosen as the mascot but i cant seem to find that post again - if someone has it and knows what im talking about please post it!  - something about how it is odd, reclusive, intelligent, and basically doesnt put up with BS if its backed into a corner.  It thought it was a decent design for people to put on their rear windows or bumpers etc ...

[leetninja]

so - you would just hand over your guns even though you have the right to have them?  Really? 

personally I would use shooting someone as a last resort but if I am threatened with violence I will respond accordingly.  It takes a lot to get me riled up to the point where i would be willing to pull the trigger but if it was them or me i would rather live to see another day.  if there were absolutely no other options on the table other than hand my gun over to a thief or shoot the thief the only thing that the thief would get is a few rounds of lead at a few thousand feet per second.

[Kat Kanning]

if someone tried to unlawfully steal my gun - a tyrant such as Xerxes or Hitler or WHOEVER, I would rather defend myself than blindly comply.  I would hope that there would be people intelligent enough to back me up on that decision.  

The American Revolution was something that happened because it had to.  At least they had the foresight to give us the right to bear arms in order to prevent tyranny.  I believe Ron Paul said it best:  "The Second amendment is not about hunting deer or keeping a pistol in your nightstand. It is not about protecting oneself against common criminals. It is about preventing tyranny."

So your answer is yes, you would kill government workers rather than give up your guns.  My answer is no, I don't want to kill rather than give up my gun.  Was that so hard?

[leetninja]

This forum is mostly made up of people associated with the Free State Project (http://freestateproject.org if you don't know what it is.)  The mascot of the Free State Project is the porcupine - since it is a creature that's harmless unless you mess with it too much.  So we refer to ourselves as porcupines or just porcs for short.

there was a better one explaining "why" in depth but i cant find it.  i just found it funny that this was you ...

[Tunga]

how 'bout : What part of KEEP AND BEAR do you not understand? 

"I would rather be a freeman in my grave,
than living as a puppet or a slave." - Jimmy Cliff - The harder they come

[AntonLee]

1) violate the property rights of the person in an attempt to commit theft of a person's belongings and while doing so open themselves up to righteous protection initiatives by the victim

OR

2)  Mind your own business, Don't Steal, Stay Away, Do the Right thing.

What does "righteous protection" by the victim mean?   Are you saying it doesn't mean protecting yourself with that gun?  If so, what is the gun for?

You can protect yourself with a gun without shooting it for one.  For two, the phrase "come and take it" does not directly imply that you'll shoot.  If you want to take the words as they stand. . . it could very well mean "I'm giving you permission to come and take these off my hands".  This would be why I don't care for the phrase much. 

As I've said before, I wish upon a star that I never ever in my life have to shoot another human being.  I do not want anyone to misinterpret my clear hope that I will never have to fire upon someone with a thought that I would not in defense of myself, or the extension of my life, my property.

[leetninja]

this topic didnt go according to plan at all lol ... i just wanted to make some neat vinyl decals lol

[Free libertarian]

this topic didnt go according to plan at all lol ... i just wanted to make some neat vinyl decals lol

From a voyeuristuc nonparticipating point of view it was actually kind of an interesting read.   

[Lloyd Danforth]

All right.  I assume not shooting them when they come for the gun you probably don't have anyway means you won't resist getting on the bus.
It may come on the same day.