Armed defense?

[Tom Sawyer]

it would have said that an individual person has the right to ignore government entirely. Instead of this, it implies that an individual does not have this right, that they must instead suffer government and go through some formalized process of altering or abolishing the government as a collective. Both altering and abolishing require groups of people to act, not individuals, which in the context of government, always harms individuals. In contrast, a stalwart individual, who of his own volition, refuses to obey the state, can persuade others to do the same, and over time make government irrelevant and ineffectual without resorting to any aggressive acts of altering or abolishing government.

wow, amen. +1

[J’raxis 270145]

You guys throw around phrases like molon labe without really thinking about what you're saying.  "Over my dead body" and "from my cold dead hands" are other examples.  I'm just pointing out what you're saying actually means:  "if the government comes to take away my guns I will shoot them."  I have no interest in making you look like a whack job.  You guys are the ones saying these things.  I'm guessing you don't really mean it.  Do you?  If you don't mean it, why do you say it?  If you do mean it, why do you all seem to be upset by my questions?

I don't go around saying stuff like this because I understand the psychology, and I'm sure they (the government) do too. People who make threats are in many cases the least likely to carry them out. The threat itself is an attempt to ward off danger, because the threat-maker is, in actuality, unwilling or unable to carry them out. Bark instead of bite.

It'd be nice to know if the guy standing next to you at a party or rally or such is going to start shooting if the gov't starts confiscating guns.

My own thresholds for when I'd be willing to use violence to defend myself—against anyone, government thug or private thug alike—would be "will I get away with it?" and "do I have nothing to lose?". As many other people have pointed out, defending oneself against government thugs with deadly force, in the current reality, is only going to result in one going to jail for a very long time, or even being executed. Defending oneself against private thugs is often a "will I get away with it?" scenario (New Hampshire's laws fortunately recognize self-defense as an affirmative defense) so I'd certainly be willing to do so.

The second scenario is "do I have nothing to lose?". If we reach a point where the government was going around rounding people up to be put in death camps or somesuch, would I defend myself with deadly force then? Why not? What have I got to lose? I might as well take a few of them down with me. Maybe it'd slow them down a bit and allow a few other people to escape.

And one important note here: None of this is about violence as an activism method. You're absolutely right that violence will never work to fix or eliminate the government. I'm speaking about violence purely as a self-defense tactic to protect oneself or others.

Question—would you be unwilling to shoot someone if they were actually coming to kill you? And if so, do you honestly think everyone else should live by this same standard?

[kickinandtickin]

I'm new to this thread, to this forum, and to this discussion about guns, violence, the Second Amendment, etc as a whole. 

I've long been a very distant observer and, for a very long time, did not think guns were necessary or socially useful.

However, recent personal awakenings, recent events, and recent (well, actually, the political waters in which we frogs have been boiling) have made me re-think and re-consider.

I am a student of Morihei Ueshiba and the art of aikido which is unarmed or lightly-armed self-defense... the spirit of harmony with the universe... a very spiritual art and discipline.  It is really a way of being, understanding, self-carriage, etc. 

I have also read extensively about situation awareness and tactical decision-making in a crisis, and about the OODA loop (which in some circles is brought into training about the use of weapons).

That said, I offer up to this discussion the following:


http://kennysideshow.blogspot.com/ has two articles of interest:

Monday, April 13, 2009
Self-Defense is Futile

20/20 and 60 Minutes would like us to think so.

Is the Anti-gun personality backing down or being brought down?

by John Longenecker

---

Myths of armed self-defense: 'If I only had'...the truth

by Paul Valone

"[Active killers] strike stunned, defenseless innocents via surprise ambush. On a level playing field, the typical active killer would be a no-contest against anyone reasonably capable of defending themselves." –

Force Science Research Center

Cleverly aimed at undermining growing calls for arming concealed handgun permit-holders in schools and other allegedly "gun free" zones which attract active killers, Friday's hit piece on ABC's "20/20," entitled "If I only had a gun," claimed to demonstrate that mere citizens are incapable of preventing mass murders like Virginia Tech. What "20/20" avoided mentioning, however, is that the personality characteristics of active killers actually make them more vulnerable to armed intervention than common criminals..."

More at the link..  http://kennysideshow.blogspot.com/

[slave_3646]

That said, I offer up to this discussion the following:


http://kennysideshow.blogspot.com/ has two articles of interest:

Monday, April 13, 2009
Self-Defense is Futile

20/20 and 60 Minutes would like us to think so.

Is the Anti-gun personality backing down or being brought down?

by John Longenecker

---

Myths of armed self-defense: 'If I only had'...the truth

by Paul Valone

"[Active killers] strike stunned, defenseless innocents via surprise ambush. On a level playing field, the typical active killer would be a no-contest against anyone reasonably capable of defending themselves." –

Force Science Research Center

Cleverly aimed at undermining growing calls for arming concealed handgun permit-holders in schools and other allegedly "gun free" zones which attract active killers, Friday's hit piece on ABC's "20/20," entitled "If I only had a gun," claimed to demonstrate that mere citizens are incapable of preventing mass murders like Virginia Tech. What "20/20" avoided mentioning, however, is that the personality characteristics of active killers actually make them more vulnerable to armed intervention than common criminals..."

More at the link..  http://kennysideshow.blogspot.com/

Propaganda to keep the masses believing that there's no way that they can defend themselves. We simply can't have a society of people that believes that they can defend themselves, can we? What would happen when they figure out that the govt. assaults them daily?

[erisian]

Gun ownership and nonviolence are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
What is arguably one of the least violent societies in the world also has one of the best defended populations. In Switzerland, every adult male, who are all militarily trained, owns, and is required to maintain, a gun and a supply of ammo. They are also required to qualify on a shooting range once a year, with their own rifle. Their utilities are all underground, and every house has a bomb shelter. They are  long way from being a free society in the libertarian sense, but in case you hadn't noticed, nobody fucks with the Swiss.

[AntonLee]

that's disgusting Leetninja. . . this is not your property and threatening to destroy someone else's property simply because they don't want you on it is beyond reprehensible.

I was hoping you would come back and follow the owner's rules.  Now I have to ignore you because you obviously have no problem fucking with someone else's property.

[AntonLee]

Gun ownership and nonviolence are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
What is arguably one of the least violent societies in the world also has one of the best defended populations. In Switzerland, every adult male, who are all militarily trained, owns, and is required to maintain, a gun and a supply of ammo. They are also required to qualify on a shooting range once a year, with their own rifle. Their utilities are all underground, and every house has a bomb shelter. They are  long way from being a free society in the libertarian sense, but in case you hadn't noticed, nobody fucks with the Swiss.

I love that image!

[leetninja]

really?  youre just going to remove my posts now?  this is post number 7 you have removed without cause.  maybe someone will read it before you remove it this time. 

this is really pathetic.

i have done nothing wrong.

I never called anyone "stupid"

I merely have my own opinion which last i checked i was entitled to

you banned my IP (futile) because i didnt 100% agree with your view?

you remove posts where i defend myself against accusations of BS?

Really!?  This is how this is going to go down???

are you going to ban everyone and remove all posts that you dont agree with?  im surious.  will you?

perhaps if i bow to your majesty you wont remove them?

[erisian]

I love that image!

If you liked that, you'll enjoy where it came from. It's a link too!

[Tom Sawyer]

perhaps if i bow to your majesty you wont remove them?

You should be aware that multiple people have the power to remove posts etc.

Kind of seems like you wigged out and flipped into troll mode, seemed like a little bump in the road that you over reacted and swerved into the ditch.

[leetninja]

You should be aware that multiple people have the power to remove posts etc.

Kind of seems like you wigged out and flipped into troll mode, seemed like a little bump in the road that you over reacted and swerved into the ditch.

this is the second time i have had to post this since my posts continue to be deleted with no cause ...

You should be aware that multiple people have the power to remove posts etc.

Kind of seems like you wigged out and flipped into troll mode, seemed like a little bump in the road that you over reacted and swerved into the ditch.

not being a troll at all.  i decided to not take part in a conversation that i thought was going nowhere - i dont see how that is "wrong" - in fact i basically was just trying to remove myself from the conversation

i never called russell "stupid" i didnt even mean to offend him and i tried to tell him that here multiple times.

i go home and try to log in and my IP is blocked ... to me that is a rather ridiculous thing to have happen to me.  blocking me from the entire site and forum without any real cause and after saying that i wouldnt be forced away.  the only way i can sign on now is by trickery that i have done on my end at home - i have no problem doing but it does get rather old and annoying after a while ...

maybe i assume to much in thinking that its russell specifically but that is based off of the comment that kat made earlier about him "making me leave" which i also thought was odd.  if it is someone else that has some sort of problem with me for what amounts to nothing perhaps they should a) get over it and/or b) discuss it with me rather than trying to silence and censor me

i have been an active member, i have defended people on here, people here have helped me when i needed advice or just someone to speak to and i really felt like i found a decent group of people but this is quickly becoming beyond nightmarish and it seems to have gotten out of control ...

i dont think that i broke any rule here that deserves a punishment of this caliber ... 

[Kat Kanning]

I haven't deleted any posts...not sure who did.  I was blocking someone else, you were blocked by accident.

[Kat Kanning]

Oh, Russell says he deleted your post when you said, what if I raped your wife in front of you?  I can't say that I sympathize with your "plight".

[Lloyd Danforth]

He also bragged about doing you the favor of not bringing your system down.

[leetninja]

Oh, Russell says he deleted your post when you said, what if I raped your wife in front of you?  I can't say that I sympathize with your "plight".

i never said that!  holy crap ...

what i asked was what happens when they come to search and seize as their please in your home without cause - how would you remain calm - and then gave a double scenario

scenario one being if it was just a kop - comes in you try to reason with im he pulls his weapon cuffs you tells you to shut up etc - what is the reaction -

the second scenario is not a kop - just a jackass who decides to come to your house do what they want and take what they want and then decides its a good idea to rape your wife ...

that second scenario has happened in the world MANY times ...

i was saying it because russell seemed to be saying that no matter who it is or what they did that he would be non violent ...

I DID NOT SAY THAT I WOULD DO THAT!