I Will Be Boycotting the NHUnderground Forums

[John Shaw]

I fortunately havent had to draw, cock, and fire under real stress.  simulated situations are different no matter what.  i like to think i can do it quickly enough but there are always the unfactorable circumstances.

I understand that if i didnt have a free hand i would essentially be in a bad situation.

I have taken safety and traianing courses.  i understand that it is the general consesnsu that its draw and fire no matter what i just dont see it that way.  if someone is coming at you and you draw and they stop in their tracks and run the other way - why must you then fire?

Like I said before, you have to train until it becomes a muscle memory thing. Your body has to be able to take a specific action in the middle of an adrenaline dump. The only way to do this consistently is to repeat the action until it happens automatically, like playing a musical instrument. You draw from holster, pivot while lifting, sight picture and fire. Two to center of mass, one to head area. Carefully replace the gun and do it again. The key is accuracy. You do it as slowly as you need to, to be accurate at seven yards, then slowly increase your speed. Reload and repeat until you stop getting better, and start getting worse again. Then quit. Come back to the range and do it again. There is no end to this training. Once a week is good to maintain your skill. 50 rounds is probably enough but I do more. (Around 50-75 per gun I wish to practice with, which can be up to ten at a session. Sometimes more for fun.)

The reason I just spewed all that out, is so that once you know what real training is like, you will understand why the "Draw and fire" thing exists. At a moment of truth, you are barely there. You need to be able to trust your body to take the action.

When I draw from a holster and fire, it takes me... (Looking up my most recent times) .352 seconds to draw and fire the first shot. That's just over a third of a second. Maybe half to three quarters of a second if I snag on my overshirt.

This is why you don't brandish. If you're trained properly, your body moves more quickly than your decision making process. That is why you must decide *first*, before taking any sort of action. You have to develop that self control or you're risking the lives of yourself and others. 

i thought they showed up later on and that he had basically pulled etc and then drove away because they shut up - maybe i read it wrong whatever.

In the video I saw, he didn't say anything about what happened after he drew his gun out, so I don't know. I just recall him going off about how well trained he was because he was in the Navy or some nonsense.

i literally wrote what i said in line without editing it.  i think something is very off with the story.  to the point where i will just ask jesse:  seriously how did you draw, rack, and aim if you were being held by one arm by someone? 

You don't. You lie and say that when you don't want to get into trouble and want to give the impression that you were justified in your actions, OR you really don't remember what happened because you spazzed out from an adrelaline fear dump.

no worries.  its appreciated.

i was in a situation and maybe you can tell me what you think of how i handled it?

basically:  i caught some kids trying to burn down a house - i intervened from a distance vocally - they started coming at me saying they were going to kick my ass etc - they were all of 15-18 yrs old - i simply showed them that i was carrying my weapon (didnt draw) and said "not a good idea"  to be honest if they had kept coming they wouldnt have received a second warning.

now i could have drawn and they would have run home to mommy but i wouldnt have had to fire.  the mere presence of a gun immediately de-escalated that particular part of the situation.

should i have done something else?

I don't like lifeboat scenarios, because while I can give you advice about what you could have done in situation X, that answer may not apply to any other situation, and could be the exactly wrong thing to do in another scenario.

However, I'll take a shot.

You should have said exactly what you meant. Take the same actions and say it this way: "Not a good idea. You will not get a second warning. (Fuckers)"

But otherwise I don't see a problem with what you did.

I have had to lean in close to someone and say "Listen, I am armed. Please don't take this any further.". It works just fine. Even with a belligerant drunk.

[John Shaw]

This is spot-on.
I had it happen to me.
2 guys came at me in my truck at a red light. They had followed me from their house, where I had come up over a sharp crest in the road & almost rear-ended someone stopped inthe middle of the road, in front of their house. I ended up sideways in the road, swore at the car & headed out.
1 guy on each side of the truck. Pass. side locked, so he couldn't get in. Driver side dude smacks me upside the head through the open window, then goes for the door lock. Pistol comes up w/ barrel in his face....He backs off.
Game over.

If you're a pragmatist, I guess.

The way that works <> The best, safest way for all involved.

[dalebert]

2. Was he carrying a "Cocked and locked" MAC-11 on a drawstring? Doubtful.

He was carrying it on a string that was attached to the front and back of the gun and slung over his shoulder without a round in the chamber. When I first saw him, it was swaying around by his hip and pointing at people he was facing. See my earlier post if you want to know my thoughts on that.

[John Shaw]

He was carrying it on a string that was attached to the front and back of the gun and slung over his shoulder without a round in the chamber. When I first saw him, it was swaying around by his hip and pointing at people he was facing.

*Twitch*

Alright, I officially declare that everything I've said about Jesse in this thread is super awesome and true on an epic, nay... Biblical scale.



He for serious was carrying a MAC-11? I assume it was the semi, of course.

On a string?!? Jesus wept.

Useless guns. Big for no reason, clumsy, anemic ammunition size... Yuck.

And then he's carrying that honking hunk of lame on a string and it's swinging around? Let me know where to send the flowers.

[MengerFan]

Alright, I officially declare that everything I've said about Jesse in this thread is super awesome and true on an epic, nay... Biblical scale.



He for serious was carrying a MAC-11? I assume it was the semi, of course.

On a string?!? Jesus wept.

Useless guns. Big for no reason, clumsy, anemic ammunition size... Yuck.

And then he's carrying that honking hunk of lame on a string and it's swinging around? Let me know where to send the flowers.

Dude, lighten up. That's how those navy boys roll.

Wonder why I don't get any hits when I google "MAC-11 on a string".

[akmisrmaadi]

i carry my p12 condition 0 with a string.

the string is tied to the trigger

[John Shaw]

Wonder why I don't get any hits when I google "MAC-11 on a string".

Must be some special elite SEAL thing or something.

[FTL_Ian]

Dale and I both talked with him about carrying safely.  I believe he took us seriously.  His method of carrying it certainly unnerved me.  Everyone makes mistakes.  Hopefully a few kind words will encourage him to be cognizant of carrying without endangering others, if not, ostracism should do the trick.

[John Shaw]

i carry my p12 condition 0 with a string.

the string is tied to the trigger

*Twitch* *Twitch*

***MEGATWITCH***

I just don't understand the point of the thing. (MAC-11, Teks, other semiauto subguns) I mean, they have a short barrel, shoot pistol rounds, and have medium cap magazines.

And then they're HUGE.

Functionally, they are no different than any semiauto pistol, weigh more than twice as much, are twice as large, and might as well have "I'm a gangbanger!!!" painted on the side.

And .380... What's the point of having that honkin' huge gun that screams menace when it's a pea shooter? .380 is a round you use in a gun small enough to hang from a lanyard, over your neck.

Don't get me wrong, owning one? Hell, own five for all I care. I mean, I've got some seriously nutty guns in my collection, but to carry something like that... Well, let me stop before I start picking on the dude.

[John Shaw]

Dale and I both talked with him about carrying more safely.  I believe he took us seriously.  His method of carrying it certainly unnerved me.  Everyone makes mistakes.  Hopefully a few kind words will encourage him to be cognizant of carrying without endangering others, if not, ostracism should do the trick.

Well I'm glad you guys have said something to him. I know the dude is younger and such. Hell, everyone has to start somewhere...

I just dunno if I'd wanna be around him while he's going through that learning process, heh.

Alright, imma ease up before it starts to look like I'm picking on the kid.

This is a story that goes into my permanent file, though. 

[anthonybpugh]

This has got to be a joke.  I cannot imagine that anyone would be stupid enough to be carrying around a MAC-11.  This asshole sounds like a god damned menace to everyone around him.   

[FTL_Ian]

Carrying guns is so cliche.  I think Jesse should strap a samurai sword to his back.  Now THAT would be fucking awesome.

[dalebert]

Dale and I both talked with him about carrying safely.  I believe he took us seriously.

He did. You're right to cut him some slack, John. As I said before in Jesse's defense:

I've been very critical of Jesse before and I'm sure there will be plenty more times in the future. He's still young and has a bit of that familiar bravado of the angry young libertarian, but I must admit that he does seem to take what people have to say as constructive criticism if it's presented tactfully. I agree with Ryan that "he has shown a remarkable amount of acceptance to critique and discourse about his activities".

In fact I think he gave up on finding a holster that he was happy with and just decided to sell the gun and look into different options for regular carry.

[John Shaw]

You're right to cut him some slack, John. As I said before in Jesse's defense:

Yeah, I'm not gonna bag on the dude anymore.

As you know, the gun thing is an issue close to my heart. I just get a little wound up when I see stuff like that.

[akmisrmaadi]

i carry my p12 condition 0 with a string.

the string is tied to the trigger

*Twitch* *Twitch*

***MEGATWITCH***

I just don't understand the point of the thing. (MAC-11, Teks, other semiauto subguns) I mean, they have a short barrel, shoot pistol rounds, and have medium cap magazines.

And then they're HUGE.

Functionally, they are no different than any semiauto pistol, weigh more than twice as much, are twice as large, and might as well have "I'm a gangbanger!!!" painted on the side.

And .380... What's the point of having that honkin' huge gun that screams menace when it's a pea shooter? .380 is a round you use in a gun small enough to hang from a lanyard, over your neck.

Don't get me wrong, owning one? Hell, own five for all I care. I mean, I've got some seriously nutty guns in my collection, but to carry something like that... Well, let me stop before I start picking on the dude.

there is no point to semi auto UZI/mac11/mac10/tek9 etc... they are pointless and not good at anything. they were designed to be fully automatic and that is their only purpose and the only way they are effective. of course the government makes it extremely difficult for us to have them.

i think people should carry anything, and any way they want to. if they are reckless and shoot someone they'll have to deal with that. but the possibility of something happening isn't enough to ban.

if you go to israel a huge percentage of the population there carry UZIs