I Will Be Boycotting the NHUnderground Forums

[Coconut]

Addendum-- it is also pretty interesting that the people who live in closest proximity to me (my roommates) don't think I've really done anything wrong, and that my responses here weren't out of hand. But what do they know, they're probably not "evolved" enough either.

If I lived in close proximity to you, I wouldn't want you thinking I disagreed with you either.

Just saying.

Which would mean my roommates are liars. Is that an option you would like to entertain?

They might prefer a small lie to the alternative of you "defending" yourself to them until you're blue in the face; or creating an uncomfortable living situation.

P.S. : Pat was mean for bringing up a sensitive topic. I also think he was seeking the source of your harbored aggressiveness. I have lots of anger too; I just cover it with my retarded smile.

[FTL_Ian]

I agree, I think Pat also bears blame in this conflict.  While a tit-for-tat response may have seemed justified, in hindsight, it should be clear it only exacerbated the situation. 

Jesse, while you may not have "started" it, you could finish it by apologizing for what you did.  If Pat doesn't want to apologize, then you'll be the better man.  Hopefully both sides can come to a mutual understanding.  You don't have to be friends, but you don't have to be nasty to each other, either.

[AnarchoJesse]

Addendum-- it is also pretty interesting that the people who live in closest proximity to me (my roommates) don't think I've really done anything wrong, and that my responses here weren't out of hand. But what do they know, they're probably not "evolved" enough either.

If I lived in close proximity to you, I wouldn't want you thinking I disagreed with you either.

Just saying.

Which would mean my roommates are liars. Is that an option you would like to entertain?

They might prefer a small lie to the alternative of you "defending" yourself to them until you're blue in the face; or creating an uncomfortable living situation.

P.S. : Pat was mean for bringing up a sensitive topic. I also think he was seeking the source of your harbored aggressiveness. I have lots of anger too; I just cover it with my retarded smile.

What he was "seeking" was being put in his place when bringing up that topic, in my opinion. As for my aggression, I'm just sick of being pushed around-- there is no need for it, and I won't stand for it.

I agree, I think Pat also bears blame in this conflict.  While a tit-for-tat response may have seemed justified, in hindsight, it should be clear it only exacerbated the situation. 

Jesse, while you may not have "started" it, you could finish it by apologizing for what you did.  If Pat doesn't want to apologize, then you'll be the better man.  Hopefully both sides can come to a mutual understanding.  You don't have to be friends, but you don't have to be nasty to each other, either.

Apologizing to him would be akin to apologizing to a man on the street who tried to mug you after you've shot him.

[littlehawk]

Mrs.Kat initiated this entire episode by stating her personal opinions which basically was an attack on Mr Jesse. Now that Mr Jesse attempts to defend himself he will be attacked by the others. (PatK a perfect example)

I wonder what would have happened if Mr. Jesse wrote an article attacking Mrs. Kat for her position against guns. It appears Kat can have her opinions and post them freely but heaven forbid if Mr. Jesse states his views.

Freedom is for everyone ..this includes the guncleaners and the pacifists. What good did the article written by Kat do for the forum and for the people who are concerned with freedom issues? IMO it was Mrs Kat who violated Mr Jesse's rights. But I have seen this before. Once Kat gets it "in" for someone, the rest follow and the person being ridiculed soon leaves or is banned. Now go ahead and play your childish karma games.

Littlehawk

 

[thinkliberty]

Wouldn't the mantra of "don't take the internet seriously" equally apply to PatK, et. al.? Why the outrage from them, in that case?

It applies to everyone. If PatK wants to get shit on his hands let him. If he flings some at you, don't pick it up and fling it back.

A simple reply with "ad hominem" will do, if you really feel the need to reply, but most of the time silence is the best response. If you don't respond the comments get forgotten quickly because it's not important to most people. The more you respond the more people will read about it... If you ignore it, everyone else will too. The person that attacked you knows you are not going to respond to them when they say things about you and they will leave you alone when they know they are being ignored.  

You can block messages from trolls in your user settings on this forum. It's a pretty sweet feature, it allows you to boycott messages from people without boycotting the whole forum.

[AnarchoJesse]

Wow.  At least throw the ball in my direction.

I'll try it once... again... give me your one most solid critique.

You hold a double standard:

When PatK makes a personal attack, you say nothing.

When Jesse makes a personal attack in response to a personal attack, Jesse is a bad person who is out of control and is unwanted by the community.

If you mean that "you", as the people who inhabit this forum, have a double standard, I don't believe that there has been a standard established.

I don't hold a double standard... I have a multifaceted, interdenominational, quantum poly-standard that is applied as I see fit.

In other words, you cherry pick when your standards of individual decency apply. Telling. Truly, it is.

Making "personal attacks" is part of a groups dynamic.  
If your going to be part of a group you should know the things that are humorous with in that group and those things that are divisive.
If a member of a group is out of line the group will help that member get in line before it rejects him.
When a group member asks you if you actually wish harm to another member, you should realize the gravity of that question.

Making personal attacks are contrary to mutual understanding and forward progression. They have little purpose but to ignite conflict-- and since I'm so clearly one who loves conflict, my response should have been of little surprise. I don't recall wishing to harm another member of this group, or even openly stating so.

Here is my critique of you:  You are a drama queen... which isn't a bad thing for a group to have... but your a gun waving drama queen... which is a bad thing.

I'm the drama queen for responding to criticisms? And when have I ever "waved" a gun around, barring that one incident at Vendetta with the MAC-11 that was soon rectified after I was approached about it that very same day? Only time I can think you could say I was "gun waving" was when the thugs assaulted me down the street-- and even then, I was totally in the right. Andrew Carroll, who was there when it happened, saw it go down, and even posted here defending me.

But hey, don't listen to his first person perspective. What does he know, right? He didn't write a hit piece on it that was taken from a context totally removed from the situation.

A simple reply with "ad hominem" will do, if you really feel the need to reply, but most of the time silence is the best response. If you don't respond the comments get forgotten quickly because it's not important to most people. The more you respond the more people will read about it... If you ignore it, everyone else will too. The person that attacked you knows you are not going to respond to them when they say things about you and they will leave you alone when they know they are being ignored.

See though, in standing up for my liberties, I've gotten into the habit of calling bullshit where I see it. Private individuals are not exempt from this.

You can block messages from trolls in your user settings on this forum. It's a pretty sweet feature, it allows you to boycott messages from people without boycotting the whole forum.

Except up until this point, I've never had a reason to block PatK.

Mrs.Kat initiated this entire episode by stating her personal opinions which basically was an attack on Mr Jesse. Now that Mr Jesse attempts to defend himself he will be attacked by the others. (PatK a perfect example)

I wonder what would have happened if Mr. Jesse wrote an article attacking Mrs. Kat for her position against guns. It appears Kat can have her opinions and post them freely but heaven forbid if Mr. Jesse states his views.

Freedom is for everyone ..this includes the guncleaners and the pacifists. What good did the article written by Kat do for the forum and for the people who are concerned with freedom issues? IMO it was Mrs Kat who violated Mr Jesse's rights. But I have seen this before. Once Kat gets it "in" for someone, the rest follow and the person being ridiculed soon leaves or is banned. Now go ahead and play your childish karma games.

Littlehawk

I wouldn't actually so far as to say my rights have been violated by her actions (penning words isn't actual harm unto another person), but I can't really find myself disagreeing with all of this within the context that it was a baseless and senselessly written article.

[littlehawk]

Those words could be used as testamonial evidence in the legal arena.

[Mike Barskey]

When I am angry or very passionate about something, I very often tell the person I'm speaking with (or yelling at, as is often the case) that I want to stop the conversation for a while, until I calm down. I find that when I am passionate or angry or emotional, I make many more mistakes and do and say things that I later regret. Whereas if I calm down first, I not only have given myself time to think about things more, but I can also approach the very same person and very same issue while more clear headed, without hormones and emotions tempting me to do what feels right at the time, even though I know it will hurt in the long run.

One more benefit of cooling down is that if I realize I have been wrong about something, it is much easier to admit it when I'm calm and peaceful, and when I have the ability to have thought about it.

Can I suggest that this discussion be tabled for a while? It is obvious to me that there is a lot of passion and anger here, and it may be inciting more passion and anger instead of helping find positive results. And, since "tabling" a discussion is possibly more difficult on an internet forum, I'd like to suggest that if you do agree to take a break from this conversation, you refrain from taking parting shots when you do.

By "you," I mean everyone.

[FTL_Ian]

I agree with this.

[EthanLeeVita]

I agree with a cool-down time. However while helping Dale move tonight with Richard and Chris and learning this had escalated far beyond what I had last seen, I had an interesting thought (sorry for poor sentence). I hope you don't mind such a thing from a relatively quiet lurker-type.

What if we experimented with the mediator(one or a group of people) justice system like many anarchist thought models on justice mention? Person(s) to be agreed on by both sides with the caveat that their decision is binding within our little community. It would be a nice experiment to see how it works(on an intellectual anarchist level) and possibly resolve this situation. Since Pat/Kat and Jesse would have to agree on a person(s) mutually, I'm sure unbiased people would be chosen since Jesse would not choose someone he believed to be biased for Pat/Kat and they would not choose someone they believed to be biased for Jesse. In addition, both sides would be honor-bound to agree by the mediator(s) decision or be known as someone breaking their word. Thoughts?

[Russell Kanning]

when you call my wife a tyrant ... i find it annoying, but kinda funny because of the extreme terms used
when patk says that you might have issues with your father ... I think he might be right
when my wife zings you ... i laugh ... she really is funny sometimes and online ... on her own forum ... she really is in her element               it isn't a fair fight

and some of us just want the public to know that we do not want to be associated with you when you act certain ways ... and it eventually leads us to not want to hang around you

[Pat K]

Good to see this thread is still here. I've grown bored, and the Underground is always good for kicking shit around.

For all of my detractors, and especially YOU, Kat: They never did build statues for critics.

For those who supported me, thank you.

No they usually build statues to some SOB who got people killed.

Are you being contrarian just for the sake of it, or to save face for your clique?

I have a clique ?

Cool, who are all the members of the PatK clique?

Maybe I can get them jackets or some thing.

Ya know Jesse if ya could just get that big chip off your shoulder
and ditch the I have a big problem with my daddy thing, life would probably be
much smoother.

Choke on a donut, you miserable fat fuck.

Could I choke on some bacon instead?
I am not really a donuts kind of guy.

When you throw jabs in all directions Jesse, you got to figure
some folks may decide to jab back and they may be good at it.

I apologize if my retort was to harsh,it was meant more to shed light
than heat. If it seemed to personal, well perhaps it is not the first
thing you should tell folks when ya meet them.
As for the chip on your shoulder well everyone can see that Jesse it is a huge one.
I am sure it's weight is crushing, I know I have carried a few myself.

There is no need to turn this  into something ugly.
I hold no grudge and would hope every one can settle down peaceful like.

[thinkliberty]

See though, in standing up for my liberties, I've gotten into the habit of calling bullshit where I see it. Private individuals are not exempt from this.

When you are on the internet you are pretty much anonymous (some more than a lot more others, but for my point it does not matter)

There is this thing call the Streisand effect, which really only happens on/because of the internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Because of the Streisand effect --when you stoop to their level by responding-- You are actually rubbing their bullshit all over yourself and shouting hey everybody look at me! They have the mentality of monkeys, any response you give to them is fun and gives them validation. (it's really an art form [when done properly] called trolling, they are using you to get a reaction from yourself for their peers.)

[Capricious]

Saw this begin a month ago with the article,also saw it fracture and now completely fragment the "freestaters". the "man" has nothing to worry about.

P.S. PLEASE WOULD A MOD DELETE MY ACCOUNT SO I CANT REACTIVATE IT?

[AntonLee]

When I am angry or very passionate about something, I very often tell the person I'm speaking with (or yelling at, as is often the case) that I want to stop the conversation for a while, until I calm down. I find that when I am passionate or angry or emotional, I make many more mistakes and do and say things that I later regret. Whereas if I calm down first, I not only have given myself time to think about things more, but I can also approach the very same person and very same issue while more clear headed, without hormones and emotions tempting me to do what feels right at the time, even though I know it will hurt in the long run.

One more benefit of cooling down is that if I realize I have been wrong about something, it is much easier to admit it when I'm calm and peaceful, and when I have the ability to have thought about it.

Can I suggest that this discussion be tabled for a while? It is obvious to me that there is a lot of passion and anger here, and it may be inciting more passion and anger instead of helping find positive results. And, since "tabling" a discussion is possibly more difficult on an internet forum, I'd like to suggest that if you do agree to take a break from this conversation, you refrain from taking parting shots when you do.

By "you," I mean everyone.

this is good advice.  So many times I want to take a breath and chill out for a second.  Problem is that on the internet I can just come back angrier than ever (see the FSP forum). . . it usually doesn't help my thoughts or cause.

Pat's response was more than kind, an apology of sorts.  Perhaps you, too, Jesse can put this behind you and move forward.