Shunning

[Pat K]

I can just picture patk hitting things with a large wrench right now

Hey! Thats kinda scary how did you know about
my hitting things with a big wrench!

[Russell Kanning]

you see those cameras?

[K. Darien Freeheart]

I think Friday brings up a true and factual point; that people who claim to abhor certain behaviors aren't acting on their claims to shun people who engage in them.

But I honestly think that's exactly WHY shunning is the best and most HONEST form of social correction. If CommunityMember X went on a killing spree, you'd see him shunned OR you'd see that there are things people value MORE than "not killing". Anybody can scream and should about "this thing is bad" but when it actually comes to them ACTING on their belief, I think a lot of people aren't really strong believers in what they believe. It gets rid of that whole "Make someone else do it" that is inherent in the current penal system.

[MaineShark]

That being said, I don't see a better solution than shunning. Where do you go after you refuse to have anything to do with the individual? The other alternative would be to initiate violence against that person and for most if not all that isn't a solution.

Exactly.  There's no perfect solution.

Those who oppose non-aggressive methods nearly always resort to using a double-standard.  Non-aggressive methods might, sometimes, on rare occasions, fail to prevent certain problems.  Aggressive methods rarely prevent problems, and cause more than the few they do prevent.  Those engaging in the double-standard will assert that, since non-aggressive methods are not perfect under absolutely every situation, they should not be tried.  Even if they are many orders of magnitude better than the current situation.

I've heard plenty of liberty-minded folks end up repeating the same fallacy, because they just never realized it was ingrained into them before they found the idea of liberty.

Or, put another way, it's not a perfect solution; it's merely the best of all available solutions.

Joe

[Goble]

Whether shunning "works" or not is a moot point. It's like arguing over whether or not the prison system "works."

People will socialize and trade with whomever they want, for myriad reasons; the latter long after the former. These things will work themselves out economically, because everything traded, whether grain, pleasantries or time of day, will be done for the mutual benefit of all parties involved. This is best summed up as Pat K so eloquently and concisely did when he wrote,"freedom's messy, ain't it?"

Philosophy is fun, but it can be a real kick in the teeth if it attempts to explain every facet of every situation and how all those involved would function. This is why central planning of anything tends to be a disaster. None of us have any idea what living free really means. For most of us, it's like releasing a poodle into the wild. I'm sure there's no shortage of "WTF?" moments, no shortage of injustices... Most laws were developed in an honest attempt to clean up the "messiness" of freedom.

Avoiding the temptation to legislate how those we disagree with are dealt with is one of the most daunting challenges we as proponents of freedom have to face.

[Pat McCotter]

People will socialize and trade with whomever they want, for myriad reasons; the latter long after the former. These things will work themselves out economically, because everything traded, whether grain, pleasantries or time of day, will be done for the mutual benefit of all parties involved. This is best summed up as Pat K so eloquently and concisely did when he wrote,"freedom's messy, ain't it?"

This reminded me of the ferryman in Outlaw Josey Wales.

[AntonLee]

The pro-Travis faction on this side, and the anti-Travis faction on that side?

Crap. There's an anti-Travis faction? I'm glad I stopped following that horse-thieving thread. I only like drama when it's fake and manufactured for entertainment purposes.

you mean that drama wasn't fake or manufactured?

[Pat K]

Lots of good stuff in that there Josey Wales movie, Pat.

[Pat McCotter]

Yep. I reckon so.

[Friday]

Until just a couple of days ago, when I rather uncharacteristically cleaned my desk, I had some words of wisdom from the Stranger in High Plains Drifter scrawled on a post-it note.

Thinkin' everything ya need to know to live a good life, ya can learn in an Eastwood flick.   

[KBCraig]

Thinkin' everything ya need to know to live a good life, ya can learn in an Eastwood flick.   

Lloyd sez:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7X2_V60YK8

[anthonybpugh]

Honestly, I'm already wondering how the hell Taproom Tuesday works anymore.  The pro-Ivy faction on this side of the room, and the anti-Ivy faction on that side? The pro-Travis faction on this side, and the anti-Travis faction on that side?  The in-the-system folks on that side, the outside-the-system folks on that side, and the self-professed anti-system anarchists deeply entrenched in the political system on that side.... doesn't a room only have four sides???  Or does everyone temporarily set aside their differences for that which matters most i.e. beer?   

This is why I am really dreading PorcFest. I hope my expectations are proven wrong.

It is to be expected that you'd have a lot of the factional fighting that you are seeing.  I find the whole  thing fascinating honestly. 

[Friday]

Honestly, I'm already wondering how the hell Taproom Tuesday works anymore.  The pro-Ivy faction on this side of the room, and the anti-Ivy faction on that side? The pro-Travis faction on this side, and the anti-Travis faction on that side?  The in-the-system folks on that side, the outside-the-system folks on that side, and the self-professed anti-system anarchists deeply entrenched in the political system on that side.... doesn't a room only have four sides???  Or does everyone temporarily set aside their differences for that which matters most i.e. beer?   

This is why I am really dreading PorcFest. I hope my expectations are proven wrong.

It is to be expected that you'd have a lot of the factional fighting that you are seeing.  I find the whole  thing fascinating honestly. 

My original point was that there's very, very little factional "fighting", "shunning", or whatever, in real life, despite what many of us post on the Internet or say about each other behind backs.  Or if there is, I'm totally out of the loop.  And talking smack on the Internet has never counted for all that much.

When it comes to a difference of opinion over activist strategy (for example, inside-the-system activism vs outside-the-system activism), I think it's a good thing that people still socialize together, dine together, help each other move, etc.  Even if an OTS activist feels that politics is "an immoral dead end" ^TM Vitruvian, I don't think it makes sense to pointedly avoid all ITS activists, because some of them will probably see the light sooner or later.  Are there instances of people going in the other direction, I wonder?

When it comes to Porcupines doing things that violate the NAP, I think it's *not* such a good thing that people seem to ignore it in the social sphere.  But as a few people have pointed out, there's a free market in the world of friendship and socializing, and I guess there's no use in stressing myself out about it.  I'll try to personally avoid those whose actions I find repugnant, and leave it to others to make their own choices.   

[Lloyd Danforth]

Honestly, I'm already wondering how the hell Taproom Tuesday works anymore.  The pro-Ivy faction on this side of the room, and the anti-Ivy faction on that side? The pro-Travis faction on this side, and the anti-Travis faction on that side?  The in-the-system folks on that side, the outside-the-system folks on that side, and the self-professed anti-system anarchists deeply entrenched in the political system on that side.... doesn't a room only have four sides???  Or does everyone temporarily set aside their differences for that which matters most i.e. beer?   

This is why I am really dreading PorcFest. I hope my expectations are proven wrong.

Porcfest will be great! You're going to like Rogers!

[Russell Kanning]

When it comes to Porcupines doing things that violate the NAP, I think it's *not* such a good thing that people seem to ignore it in the social sphere.

I think you would find some of us are willing to start separating themselves from others that don't belong in our tent. Not all of us are desperately hoping to keep up the numbers and can keep going to events like the manchester porcupine meeting and hanging out with political types and others that are willing to use force.
I don't mind sometimes hanging out with those that are still lured by politics ... as long as they are not openly hurting others ... especially our friends.