The Libertarian Paradox?

[vexer]

I understand that what I'm saying here may be regarded as trolling. And that this could be deleted, me banned, etc. But, here is my genuine central puzzle about many Americans, in the spirit of freedom of speech, on the 4th of July:

I'm not American, but I've lived in Portsmouth for a time, and I agree that NH is a
great part of the US. I very much like most things about it. I love NH.

But reading this site, it's excited my confusion about what some Americans think they believe in.

It seems to me more than odd that some Americans will use the word, "democracy", at every opportunity, will not mind forcibly exporting "democracy" to other countries at the point of a gun, and yet at the same time, distrust, if not hate, their own government. Which, they having voted that government into power the first place – is strange.

How can you love 'democracy' and hate 'government', since one is the expression of the other?

You are the People. You voted your government in. If you dislike the government YOU voted in, then you dislike Democracy. You dislike yourselves.

If your argument is that, "oh, -we- didn't vote them in, the (other) majority did" – then you still don't believe in democracy. You won't abide by majority rule. Which is, the basis of Democracy.

Or your idea is that government should be as powerless as possible. That is, the will of the majority should be as powerless as possible. That is, Democracy should be as powerless as possible.

Seems to me that the Right-wing, 'Libertarian' ethos is fundamentally anti-democratic.



(Edited out some suck-up stuff about me liking the no seat-belt and no bike-helmets laws).

[Pat McCotter]

First off, Welcome to the party and to America!

Second,  you will not find a lot of government-loving, regime building folks on this  forum.

Also, the US is not a democracy; it is a Constitutional Republic. The people of America are represented in the government.

You need to separate "Americans" and "Government". Americans are the people living here. The Government, no matter that the Constitution starts out with "We, the People," are representatives of some Americans. The American people did not vote for the Government; only some of them did. Some voted for a different Government. Some did not vote at all.

All that being said, America is not forcibly exporting Democracy. Some people in the government are saying they are exporting Democracy but they are confused. They are regime building, pure and simple.

Just remember there are more than 300 million people who live here. They don't all follow the same leader. A large percentage don't even care, let alone know, who their so-called leaders are. There are also those who eschew leaders altogether and just want to be left alone to enjoy their lives.

America has been called a melting pot but the heat hasn't been raised to everyone's melting point, yet. There are still some solid characters here who refuse to be labeled.

[Kat Kanning]

I have no liking for democracy, exporting it or otherwise.  It gives people only the illusion that they are in control of their lives, while the people in power enslave us.

[vexer]

Kanning, if not 'Democracy', then what?

[Ogre]

Democracy is a nice word that's been tremendously misused. Democracy is, by definition, mob rule. I'll go ahead and use the classic example to help define what it really means:

Four men and one woman are in a room. If they vote to rape the woman and the men win 4-1, they get to rape her. That's democracy.

And indeed, most people on this forum don't like democracy. They don't support exporting democracy or using democracy, and very few support "regime building." I think that most people here support freedom, plain and simple. And government is the opposite and enemy of freedom, no matter what type of government is created or how it is supported. Where is that darn flash...

There it is. Check out this flash movie, vexer, I think it will help explain what many who like freedom understand.

[bigmike]

Just remember there are more than 300 million people who live here. They don't all follow the same leader. A large percentage don't even care, let alone know, who their so-called leaders are. There are also those who eschew leaders altogether and just want to be left alone to enjoy their lives.

Only followers need leaders

[PA-Carry]

Democracy is a nice word that's been tremendously misused. Democracy is, by definition, mob rule. I'll go ahead and use the classic example to help define what it really means:

Four men and one woman are in a room. If they vote to rape the woman and the men win 4-1, they get to rape her. That's democracy.

To make this a Republic...The woman has a gun.

[vexer]

Very illuminating, 'Ogre'.

Four men and one woman are in a room. If they vote to rape the woman and the men win 4-1, they get to rape her. That's democracy.

I see what you meant. But:

You say 'rape' as though it's a bad thing. And it is – but only because the majority have said it is. Your example depends on a socially agreed (democratic) convention. It's been 'democratically' decided that rape is wrong.

That's democracy.

In your ('you' meaning most members here) world, "it would be up to each individual to decide whether 'rape' was wrong or not, each would be 'free' to decide, and the government had better not interfere with that individual's choice."

That's your 'liberty'.

(This is my very specific answer to the rhetorical example. Of course, both the example and my reply are – rhetorical.)


But now I see there is a "Free State Movement" that doesn't believe in democracy. That's unexpected. I see now that it's logically possible to hate the government you yourself voted in.

As I asked, if not Democracy, then what?



Reportedly, Winston Churchill said both these things (I'm paraphrasing):

"The best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with an ordinary man."

"Democracy does not work well, but it works better than anything else."

[KBCraig]

You say 'rape' as though it's a bad thing. And it is – but only because the majority have said it is. Your example depends on a socially agreed (democratic) convention. It's been 'democratically' decided that rape is wrong.

Rape is wrong, even where it's been "democratically decided" that it's permissible (and there are such places). It's wrong because a person is violated against her will, not because everyone agrees it's wrong.

[vexer]

No, Mr. Craig, "right and wrong" is a democratically elected thing.

It is because we collectively decided it was wrong.

Slavery is wrong now. It wasn't before. Women can vote. They couldn't, before.

You can't put a blow-torch to your cat any more.

These "liberties" have been taken from you. Because we the people said they should be.

[bigmike]

No, Mr. Craig, "right and wrong" is a democratically elected thing.

It is because we collectively decided it was wrong.

Slavery is wrong now. It wasn't before. Women can vote. They couldn't, before.

You can't put a blow-torch to your cat any more.

These "liberties" have been taken from you. Because we the people said they should be.

Wow Vexer.

Right and wrong is not a democratically elected thing, it's a moral thing. Do you think that just because slavery was legal it was right? If we collectively decided slavery was right after all, would you go along with it?

I really think you need to re-read the definition of the word liberty and you'd quickly realize that owning slaves and blow-torching cats have nothing to do with the word.

[vexer]

Mike,

Do you think that just because slavery was legal it was right?

I think that the majority thought it was right at the time. That's why it was legal.

Don't "wow" me. "Wow" you. (The ordinary person, who went along with the majority)

[Pat McCotter]

Again, vexer, you are lumping all Americans as supporting the government as it is now structured.

Because we were born and raised in this country, we are Americans. Not all voting age Americans voted in the last election. Of those who voted, not all voted for Barack Obama. Of those who voted for Barack Obama, not all agree with him on evry agenda item he puts forth.

You look at the forest and think that all of the trees are the identical. They are not. There is great variety. Please, visit the trees rather than the forest.

[John Edward Mercier]

Mike,

Do you think that just because slavery was legal it was right?

I think that the majority thought it was right at the time. That's why it was legal.

Don't "wow" me. "Wow" you. (The ordinary person, who went along with the majority)

That is what Mike is explaining. The democratic process does not infer that what has come out is good, right, or true... simply the will of the Majority. The expression 'Tyranny of the Majority' is used when the process creates something immoral either through restriction or legalization.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

How can you love 'democracy' and hate 'government', since one is the expression of the other?

This was my fundamental failing back when I considered myself a liberal. I confused "government" and "society". If you think critically for a second, someone you know is always unhappy with what the government is doing or to whom they're doing it.

You don't even need to include libertarians in that mix to get the same results.

How could SO many people be SO unhappy SO often if "government" was actually their will?

But realizing they're distinct things lets you reframe. What is society, and what is government?

Government is, essentially, a monopoly on the legitimized used of aggression. If you walk up to a man, point a gun in his face and demand he gives you 30% of the money in his wallet, and his debit card number you are a CRIMINAL. You're the perpetrator of violent crime and aggressive theft of property.

When the tax man sends you an invoice, demanding 30% of your income and your debit card number to correct "mistakes", most people don't THINK they're being robbed. But try saying "No, I'm not paying. I don't like your agency raping children in foreign countries!" and see how long it is before the violence comes upon you, for the same reason (to get your money).

And, just for good measure, maybe the "Monopoly on violence" concept is new to you. Perhaps you think it's libertarian propaganda and rhetoric. I'll leave you with someone who is quite unlibertarian and quite mainstream. He'll back up what I've said. The important part is at 1min 55sec in.