Don't associate with Ryan Marvin.

[fase2000tdi]

It's people like Ron that have allowed people to move here that may have not payed up yet, but most will in the future.

Okay, but we're libertarians, right? We don't want to see Ron lose his house, but at the same time we want to see people given a chance and have somewhere to land when they first get here.  Why is no one looking for a free market solution?

There is a demand for Free Staters in NH.  However, many are young or have lost jobs, leaving them no better off at home.. so they move.  Ron has a mortage, and needs actual MONEY. Not IOU's, etc.  If Ron can afford the losses of a certain amount of rent or people not paying up, that is his choice to make. In fact, all the choices are his to make, including making 14 people homeless.  But, responsible choices would dictate that he has some set way of receiving money.  

Other Free Staters want new movers, right?  So it takes a certain amount of money to have a roof over your head.  Other free staters can individually sponsor with a loan, or groups of free staters can with loans that are on paper with the person being "loaned" the money.  So if Ryan moves from Texas, Ryan approaches me and asks that I pay for his rent for 2 months.  I ask for my requirements, and my incentive is new free staters and an expectation of some level of interest on the loan.  If it's $1000, maybe I want $1025, because part of my interest IS having a new mover!  I take that $1000 and give it to Ron. I have a signed contract, and Ron doesn't end up short $1000.  Some people may throw red flags, so they'll have a higher rate.  Those who abuse may not even receive loans, and inturn be turned away from the FSP where they will cause damage to productive members.  We could even put a copy of the contract in a section of a BBS, no god damned special fucking reputation website needed.

Sponsors will be dissuaded from trying to charge "usery" like rates, as it may increase the default rate.  There will be a profit motive, (or a "don't lose $____" motive) to lend to people in circumstances where it can be reasonable to expect to be paid back.  The money will go directly from sponsor to the the property owner / manager, etc.  There can be all sorts of requirement and reasons for the loans, but it can be public so everyone knows who owes what to who.  As it is a private matter, even drug tests could be asked by the lender, as lending to a heroin junkie or methhead isn't something most of us would do with our own money.

We cannot just take people at face value for "being" libertarian.  It is only a label, as easy as being a "priest" and molesting little boys.  We cannot trust someone for the label they bestow upon themselves.  For those of you who cheer on Ron, shame on you.  You are encouraging wreckless behavior and breach of contract, in something that could largely have been avoided.  To those of you who lost money, wisen up.  If you support Ron's cause, then you should be willing to do more than just give him a positive word. Do something that actually helps and prevents Ron, or another person from losing their house, or having such high defaults it raises the rent for others.   Be willing to put YOUR money out there, or in combination with others so that you can get your money back.  Let it be public so when these FSP members are seen drinking a beer at Murphies and they owe $1000 to your friend, you can call them on it.  Social ostracism doesn't have to be an after-the-fact sort of thing.  It can be used to discourage bad, or irresponsible behavior.

I propose section on both NHunderground and the FSP forums be created. I will be glad to post PDF's of basic legal documents for loaning between persons, though some help would be appreciated with that.  It can have two sections, questions / discussion  and a special section ONLY for loans, starting with the beginning (preferable with scans of loan papers) and ending with them being paid back, etc.  This just requires some board admin does a few clicks, and it really is worth a shot.  I pledge to lend $100 to the first Free Stater who moves and needs a roof over their head, so long as requirements are met.


You want a free market? Act it.


Post support of my idea @ http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=18569.0   
Thank you!

[cynthia]

Is it trendy to be a lay-about? Why is it so hard for some people to make money and others relatively easy? The above, lengthy post seems bizarre to me concerning loans... I pay about 2000 a month for rent, some of these porc houses charge as low as 300 - that is peanuts! Get a frickin job; even 20 hours a week seems like it would cover rent and living expenses.

[fase2000tdi]

Is it trendy to be a lay-about? Why is it so hard for some people to make money and others relatively easy? The above, lengthy post seems bizarre to me concerning loans... I pay about 2000 a month for rent, some of these porc houses charge as low as 300 - that is peanuts! Get a frickin job; even 20 hours a week seems like it would cover rent and living expenses.

I don't know, that's a good question, but it's just not porc houses.  I can get $300/rm/month in RI.    From what I've seen many of these people don't get jobs, and when they do they're making minimum wage of slightly above.  Many don't have skills, certifications, or trades.   That is not an issue if they work and live within their means, but they come up here and live off other people, often times without jobs. 

the fact is it is an issue. I'm suggesting an easy to implement solution, and I'm even willing to help and post legal documents so they can easily be filled out. At least a contract, especially posted in the public domain, may have some effect on changing the behavior.    Many are young... 18~25ish and irresponsible.  I think this might help.

[MengerFan]

Wow, is there really a demand for shiftless bums to move to New Hampshire?

[fase2000tdi]

Wow, is there really a demand for shiftless bums to move to New Hampshire?

I don't know, ask the fucking retards inviting and creating them.

The difference between a shiftless bum and a working member of society is sometimes simply enabling them to continue bad behavior. 

[dalebert]

Fase, it's great that you're brain-storming, but I don't think there are enough free funds floating around for that kind of outreach. The few of us who have that kind of cash typically have plans for it already. I still think if someone can't save up enough cash to scrape by in a single room rental for two or three months until they have some basic job, then we shouldn't bend over backwards to get them here. Quality over quantity.

[fase2000tdi]

Fase, it's great that you're brain-storming, but I don't think there are enough free funds floating around for that kind of outreach. The few of us who have that kind of cash typically have plans for it already. I still think if someone can't save up enough cash to scrape by in a single room rental for two or three months until they have some basic job, then we shouldn't bend over backwards to get them here. Quality over quantity.

I agree with you Dale, but there are people who have came here with no funds and made it. At least, that's the story I hear.

Free funds might even be 6 people lending $50 to one person to cover a room for them for a month...   voluntary low interest loans, etc, whatever people feel willing to do.

I understand that we shouldn't bend over backwards, but incase you haven't noticed, people are bending over backwards, and then bitching about it and crying,  or even risking foreclosure where they have tenants who actually pay rent and follow their end of the agreement to "help a new mover".  I'm just proposing a solution that will take a lot of the drama of "we didn't know ____ owed ____ to ____ within the free state community" kinda stuff.  It'll be in the open and act as a deterrent against irresponsibility.  Like "hey, I saw _____ with a handle of top shelf _______, he has a job and is paying you back?"  or "Hey, asshole, you don't have a job, why do you have a handle of vodka".  As a libertarian in a free community we're fully allowed to voluntarily call each other stuff, and get in each others business.  It's involving the government or violating life, liberty, property.   Just my 2 cents.

Edit: I'm sorry, I have to add this.  Okay, I've worked security at Rhode Island's largest homeless shelter, and I've seen the same shit. People ask for charity, but they have money for cigarettes and alcohol.  I'm all for helping people get on their feet. I don't think the answer is saying "oh, don't come here unless you have money and land on your feet", but giving free rides is bad too.  I'm looking for a compromise, since it does appear a lot of people in the FSP want to help new movers, but are tired of being / seeing others burned.  You can come here and we'll help you, but only if you'll go through this process.  To me it's the same as with the homeless... and one of my goals is if we ever get close to a libertarian society it to start a homeless shelter.  They'll have to get haircuts and everything will be itemized and they'll either get jobs or go back on the street.   Coddling homeless isn't the solution, and obviously neither is FSP folk.   It doesn't mean we shouldn't be willing to help them if we're willing and feel they'll get their act together and support themselves.

[J’raxis 270145]

I understand that we shouldn't bend over backwards, but incase you haven't noticed, people are bending over backwards, and then bitching about it and crying,  or even risking foreclosure where they have tenants who actually pay rent and follow their end of the agreement to "help a new mover".  I'm just proposing a solution that will take a lot of the drama of "we didn't know ____ owed ____ to ____ within the free state community" kinda stuff.  It'll be in the open and act as a deterrent against irresponsibility.  Like "hey, I saw _____ with a handle of top shelf _______, he has a job and is paying you back?"  or "Hey, asshole, you don't have a job, why do you have a handle of vodka".  As a libertarian in a free community we're fully allowed to voluntarily call each other stuff, and get in each others business.  It's involving the government or violating life, liberty, property.   Just my 2 cents.

Some of us are working on other solutions to this problem. The PorcManor landlords do keep an internal database of who pays rent on time, who's a deadbeat, and so on. But that doesn't help non–PorcManor landlords find out who's bad at repaying debts, of course. So a few of us are now starting to spec out a "reputation database project" that will, inter alia, make this sort of information a lot more publicly available.

[fase2000tdi]

I understand that we shouldn't bend over backwards, but incase you haven't noticed, people are bending over backwards, and then bitching about it and crying,  or even risking foreclosure where they have tenants who actually pay rent and follow their end of the agreement to "help a new mover".  I'm just proposing a solution that will take a lot of the drama of "we didn't know ____ owed ____ to ____ within the free state community" kinda stuff.  It'll be in the open and act as a deterrent against irresponsibility.  Like "hey, I saw _____ with a handle of top shelf _______, he has a job and is paying you back?"  or "Hey, asshole, you don't have a job, why do you have a handle of vodka".  As a libertarian in a free community we're fully allowed to voluntarily call each other stuff, and get in each others business.  It's involving the government or violating life, liberty, property.   Just my 2 cents.

Some of us are working on other solutions to this problem. The PorcManor landlords do keep an internal database of who pays rent on time, who's a deadbeat, and so on. But that doesn't help non–PorcManor landlords find out who's bad at repaying debts, of course. So a few of us are now starting to spec out a "reputation database project" that will, inter alia, make this sort of information a lot more publicly available.

That's great you guys have a project, but a simple subforum on a BBS such as this with 2 sections would be fine.  1 forum  - You create a thread for each contract made, and post updates, both parties have access and post.

The other has questions, etc.  

There can be a sticky with a master list of people to avoid with links to threads.  What is so damned hard about that? Immediate solution and something where I don't have to learn a new layout.   I mean spec out, so basically you're sitting around talking about it while you drink.  Gettin a lot done in the free state huh?

[Coconut]

I agree with you Dale, but there are people who have came here with no funds and made it. At least, that's the story I hear.

Yes. On our missing bagels and pop-tarts.

... did I say that?

[fase2000tdi]

I agree with you Dale, but there are people who have came here with no funds and made it. At least, that's the story I hear.

Yes. On our missing bagels and pop-tarts.

... did I say that?

So make them buy you bagels and pop-tarts? 

[J’raxis 270145]

I understand that we shouldn't bend over backwards, but incase you haven't noticed, people are bending over backwards, and then bitching about it and crying,  or even risking foreclosure where they have tenants who actually pay rent and follow their end of the agreement to "help a new mover".  I'm just proposing a solution that will take a lot of the drama of "we didn't know ____ owed ____ to ____ within the free state community" kinda stuff.  It'll be in the open and act as a deterrent against irresponsibility.  Like "hey, I saw _____ with a handle of top shelf _______, he has a job and is paying you back?"  or "Hey, asshole, you don't have a job, why do you have a handle of vodka".  As a libertarian in a free community we're fully allowed to voluntarily call each other stuff, and get in each others business.  It's involving the government or violating life, liberty, property.   Just my 2 cents.

Some of us are working on other solutions to this problem. The PorcManor landlords do keep an internal database of who pays rent on time, who's a deadbeat, and so on. But that doesn't help non–PorcManor landlords find out who's bad at repaying debts, of course. So a few of us are now starting to spec out a "reputation database project" that will, inter alia, make this sort of information a lot more publicly available.

That's great you guys have a project, but a simple subforum on a BBS such as this with 2 sections would be fine.  1 forum  - You create a thread for each contract made, and post updates, both parties have access and post.

The other has questions, etc.  

There can be a sticky with a master list of people to avoid with links to threads.  What is so damned hard about that? Immediate solution and something where I don't have to learn a new layout.   I mean spec out, so basically you're sitting around talking about it while you drink.  Gettin a lot done in the free state huh?

How do you arrive at a general overview of someone's character after there are 10,000 posts?
How do you prevent a thread from descending into childish namecalling and vitriol?
How do you make sure the information being posted is even true?

What we're working on is something that takes into account all the shortcomings of the forum-style interface.

[anthonybpugh]

I'd find it hard to learn about someone's character from a database.  This experiment ought to be entertaining. 

[ny2nh]

If I understand what fase was saying, one section would be where the loaner could post the contract with the loanee....and the other would be for discussion. Since the details of any advance would be out there, it could preclude another person from also advancing....and another....and then all of a sudden 10 people have loaned this newbie $$. It could also establish individuals who might be likely to put some $$ up to help someone move and get settled. If the contract if fulfilled, the loanee posts, and that thread is locked. The discussion one could get dicey - but if the purpose is to get info out there so that the next person doesn't get burned, then so be it. For the most part, people don't post lies, although they do post things that sting a little. How would this all be somewhat contained? I think it would be called a moderator.    The thing is that there needs to be a level of trust that the moderator isn't be partial and perhaps skewing things in favor or against a particular individual. Not that that would ever happen on any of the forums.

It does sound like a simple enough thing - I think it might be best implemented on the FSP forum rather than an individual's forum like Kat's here.

[fase2000tdi]

I understand that we shouldn't bend over backwards, but incase you haven't noticed, people are bending over backwards, and then bitching about it and crying,  or even risking foreclosure where they have tenants who actually pay rent and follow their end of the agreement to "help a new mover".  I'm just proposing a solution that will take a lot of the drama of "we didn't know ____ owed ____ to ____ within the free state community" kinda stuff.  It'll be in the open and act as a deterrent against irresponsibility.  Like "hey, I saw _____ with a handle of top shelf _______, he has a job and is paying you back?"  or "Hey, asshole, you don't have a job, why do you have a handle of vodka".  As a libertarian in a free community we're fully allowed to voluntarily call each other stuff, and get in each others business.  It's involving the government or violating life, liberty, property.   Just my 2 cents.

Some of us are working on other solutions to this problem. The PorcManor landlords do keep an internal database of who pays rent on time, who's a deadbeat, and so on. But that doesn't help non–PorcManor landlords find out who's bad at repaying debts, of course. So a few of us are now starting to spec out a "reputation database project" that will, inter alia, make this sort of information a lot more publicly available.

That's great you guys have a project, but a simple subforum on a BBS such as this with 2 sections would be fine.  1 forum  - You create a thread for each contract made, and post updates, both parties have access and post.

The other has questions, etc.  

There can be a sticky with a master list of people to avoid with links to threads.  What is so damned hard about that? Immediate solution and something where I don't have to learn a new layout.   I mean spec out, so basically you're sitting around talking about it while you drink.  Gettin a lot done in the free state huh?

How do you arrive at a general overview of someone's character after there are 10,000 posts?
How do you prevent a thread from descending into childish namecalling and vitriol?
How do you make sure the information being posted is even true?

What we're working on is something that takes into account all the shortcomings of the forum-style interface.

10,000 posts?  Each time a thread is created, a copy of the contract will be posted.  At the beginning.  
You have a moderator.  Only those directly involved may post, and only relevant posts containing information / proof. Others will be deleted.
How do you make sure information on anything is even true, except with proof of contracts such as scans.  If you make a payment, get a receipt signed from the lender.  It's not that complicated.

If it develops there are too many threads, you do a simple search.

I'd like to see this on the FSP forums.