The Schism!

[Kat Kanning]

According to Mark, you are obligated to help your fellow man.  Ayn Rand is rolling over in her grave. 

[John]

I have quit voting in federal elections.
Lately I haven't been thinking too much about entirely quiting.
Thanks for the reminder. I need to give entirely quiting more consideration.

[Mark_FTL]

Hey Mark I still love you, even after your fatwah. 

Elizabeth got to see Jack at Social Sundays

I have never voted in a political race... I have worked on campaigns, helped create votes from others...

This is one of the reasons that I don't do internet debates, I am a mediocre compositionist. I don't think that one should vote for politicians if one has a problem with that (However, if your friend and fellow Porcupine is running its kinda crappy not to go and vote for them.). On the ballot in NH, there tend to be many issues and the budget is voted on in town meeting. One can arrest much aggression by voting on these issues. I hope my point is more clear.

To me, the registration with the government was not a good value compared to the infinitesimal chance of getting the guy I wanted elected.

I have not encountered the privacy argument, and will have to think on that issue.



[/quote]

[Mark_FTL]

Ok, so I don't vote.So now Mark won't support what I support. I support Free Talk Live. So now Mark has to quit Free Talk Live.

I should define what I mean by support. I won't talk crap about activism that I think is good and helpful. I just won't help in that activism. I won't shun or refuse to hang out with people I like or love as a result either. I just wish to show others the alienation they are growing in others.

[Mark_FTL]

According to Mark, you are obligated to help your fellow man.  Ayn Rand is rolling over in her grave.  

I never claimed obligation. You are not obligated to do what is good, friendly or neighborly. There are just consequences. I am trying to show people that the way they feel about what I have said is the way that the political types feel when the non-voter types say they won't vote or support their campaigns.

[Mark_FTL]

I have quit voting in federal elections.

Voting in federal elections is a statically insignificant act. I didn't bother in the general election last time. You should do it if it makes you happy, or don't if it doesn't. When you get down to local elections and ballot initiatives, it is a whole nother ball a' wax.

A $150,000 highway truck was passed by one vote at my last town meeting. One vote, and there was a Porcupine in town that refused to go vote, was all that stood between that $150,000 worth of aggression and not. Just in case you decide to say that they would have snuck it in anyway, they voted on a fire truck for $150,000 too. That didn't pass and they have to wait til next year.

[thinkliberty]

I have quit voting in federal elections.

Voting in federal elections is a statically insignificant act. I didn't bother in the general election last time. You should do it if it makes you happy, or don't if it doesn't. When you get down to local elections and ballot initiatives, it is a whole nother ball a' wax.

A $150,000 highway truck was passed by one vote at my last town meeting. One vote, and there was a Porcupine in town that refused to go vote, was all that stood between that $150,000 worth of aggression and not. Just in case you decide to say that they wouldn't have snuck it in anyway, they voted on a fire truck for $150,000 too. That didn't pass and they have to wait til next year.

Basically you are saying: "If you don't go vote then violent idiots will force you to pay for the things they want, so go and vote in their illegitimate process."  No thanks. My life does not revolve around the state or voting in their stupid game.  I don't think anyone should be held hostage to these meetings

Stop blaming the victims Mark.

It's not the fault of one person that did not take part in institutionalized violent organizations process, that violent thugs will force people to pay for a 150,000 highway truck.

Some people have better things to do with the time they have left in their life than participating in town meetings. They are not fun. You've been to them, you know this.

I don't think you should take part in their illegitimate process by voting. I don't think you should turn your back on the victims of violence because they choose to not to go vote on the violence they are subjected to.

[Giggan]

My first major election and likely last was 08 (I wrote in RP). The non-voters have swayed me. That said, whatever liberty activism you choose to participate in, Mark, I'd still support.

I'd have to ponder how I feel about your decision to 'not support' non-voting activists. To me, it seems you're doing exactly what you think is wrong with them (not doing something simple within their power to make a difference). Maybe be the bigger man?

Also, I think the fire engine guy has been guilt tripped beyond enough. Let's not forget the people using guns to pay for the fire truck.

[AntonLee]

if the vote in your town was so friggin important why didn't you change your damn plans and vote.  You aggressed against your neighbors because you decided that family time was more important.

(it is)

I should define what I mean by support. I won't talk crap about activism that I think is good and helpful. I just won't help in that activism. I won't shun or refuse to hang out with people I like or love as a result either. I just wish to show others the alienation they are growing in others.

the only alienation I've seen in this movement was the disgusting namecalling I hear about the civil disobedience crowd.  Pathetic.   It makes me wonder why I would even bring up any bill that comes up to any of the voting statists I know everyday.  It makes me wonder why I would support people who disrespect the fantastic activism being done in one part of the state. 

If you can't deal with people who want to live up to the NAP, then maybe you should just publicly ostracize them.  Until then, I'll continue to support people who's activism I don't necessarilly agree with.  I'll ask all my friends to do what's right for them, and if that includes voting for the pro-liberty issue. . .good.   I probably would have voted in Mark's election.  I feel it's not right, but I do want to help others.  Things like this make me want to stop altogether and say fuck it.

nice job.

[Lloyd Danforth]

What laws have those libertarians in the state legislature repealed? What laws have they passed?

What change has any Frestater made? Did you think this would happen overnight?

Libertarians have been voting since the 70's and government has become more and more violent.

How long do you think it will take to end institutionalized violence with voting?

I'm talking within the parameters of the FSP plan to free NH.  You got anything better to do?

[Mark_FTL]

if the vote in your town was so friggin important why didn't you change your damn plans and vote.  You aggressed against your neighbors because you decided that family time was more important.

(it is)

I should define what I mean by support. I won't talk crap about activism that I think is good and helpful. I just won't help in that activism. I won't shun or refuse to hang out with people I like or love as a result either. I just wish to show others the alienation they are growing in others.

the only alienation I've seen in this movement was the disgusting namecalling I hear about the civil disobedience crowd.  Pathetic.   It makes me wonder why I would even bring up any bill that comes up to any of the voting statists I know everyday.  It makes me wonder why I would support people who disrespect the fantastic activism being done in one part of the state. 

If you can't deal with people who want to live up to the NAP, then maybe you should just publicly ostracize them.  Until then, I'll continue to support people who's activism I don't necessarilly agree with.  I'll ask all my friends to do what's right for them, and if that includes voting for the pro-liberty issue. . .good.   I probably would have voted in Mark's election.  I feel it's not right, but I do want to help others.  Things like this make me want to stop altogether and say fuck it.

nice job.

Name calling occurs BECAUSE people feel alienated and unsupported. Isn't that obvious?

[Lloyd Danforth]

I have quit voting in federal elections.

Voting in federal elections is a statically insignificant act. I didn't bother in the general election last time. You should do it if it makes you happy, or don't if it doesn't. When you get down to local elections and ballot initiatives, it is a whole nother ball a' wax.

A $150,000 highway truck was passed by one vote at my last town meeting. One vote, and there was a Porcupine in town that refused to go vote, was all that stood between that $150,000 worth of aggression and not. Just in case you decide to say that they wouldn't have snuck it in anyway, they voted on a fire truck for $150,000 too. That didn't pass and they have to wait til next year.

No thanks. My life does not revolve around the state or voting in their stupid game.  I don't think anyone should be held hostage to these meetings

50% of your life is going to go towards paying for their stupid games. Unless you plan on never owning property, renting property or claiming income.

[thinkliberty]

50% of your life is going to go towards paying for their stupid games. Unless you plan on never owning property, renting property or claiming income.

Yes. They take 50% of my life, I am not going to give them even 1% more by going to vote.

[bigmike]

I like the back and forth here but I'm surprised nobody has brought up starving the beast. I realize it may be a few years until there are over 5,000 liberty activists who have made the move but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that at some point people will stop paying some or all of their property taxes in protest.

I think sMeg at FreeKeene brought up 100 people refusing to pay $58 of their property taxes for unjustly keeping SamIam in a cage. How about 1000 refusing to pay $150 for a truck?

After that happens a few times it won't be long before someone analyzes the fire department's budget to determine the amount of money needed to do its basic job and just pay them for what they feel is their share of the budget, if they want fire protection.

On a side note, Jesse's guerilla gardening inspired me with the concept of "from government to charity". It probably never occurs to these people that things politicians think are a good idea could be paid for by donations so I'll be bringing that up at Manchester city council meetings. I'm willing to volunteer some of my time to help the politician solicit private funds for their little projects so they don't have to steal from everyone. I'm stuck trying to come up with something that will penalize them if they choose to not at least give it a try but I'll think of something clever

Back to topic, while I understand Mark's frustration the simplest and most difficult solution is to stop paying. If it can be done for something as small as a food-coop, it can be done for public schools. If we can refuse $58 for Sam's detention, we'll get to refusing $100's to $1000's for other state funded crap forced on us. The war tax protesters do it already. It's a matter of not being afraid and having the numbers to support the non-payment. I hope at least that's what we're moving toward.

[KBCraig]

50% of your life is going to go towards paying for their stupid games. Unless you plan on never owning property, renting property or claiming income.

Yes. They take 50% of my life, I am not going to give them even 1% more by going to vote.

Not voting costs far more, if you could have stopped spending.

Voting at the town level equates to standing up in front of your neighbors and telling them, "No, don't steal from me!" Not voting equals "I don't care, take whatever you want."

I fail to see why that's such a quandary.