The Schism!

[FTL_Ian]

So, how will you determine who is a nonvoter?  Will you be keeping a list?

Will you inquire anytime a nonpolitical action is held as to if the organizer is a nonvoter?

Will your decision to avoid involvement and support be based on the organizer's voting status or the participants' voting status?  Please detail your system.

If someone refuses to answer whether they vote, will they be counted as a nonvoter? 

[Keyser Soce]

I vote for Dale too! And rather ironic that we are voting(albeit non-statist, voluntary voting) considering the origin of the thread.

If Mark gets a single vote does he stay because it wasn't unanimous (hypothetically)?

[Mark_FTL]

Held signs for a nonvoter?  Don't recall ever seeing you at the jail.  Where and for whom?

Gone to court for a nonvoter?  For whom?

What does the jail have to do with anything? I let Dave park his car at my house when he was in the pokey.

I have held plenty of signs. I have a picture from the Keene Sentinel to prove it.

The biggest flaw in my plan is I don't really know who votes and who doesn't. I have been to court for you, David and Lauren; off the top of my head. I am sure there are others.

[Mark_FTL]

I should define what I mean by support. I won't talk crap about activism that I think is good and helpful. I just won't help in that activism. I won't shun or refuse to hang out with people I like or love as a result either. I just wish to show others the alienation they are growing in others.

If you feel alienated, the onus of responsibility for that feeling is on you, not anyone else.  It is not the intent of nonvoters to alienate you.  They have decided to focus where they think is effective - they didn't decide to stop voting to piss off the politicos.  You have declared yourself upset at them and are now trying to "get even", despite the fact that nothing was done to you in the first place.  So, you cut your nose off to spite your face and refuse to support non-voters even in activism you agree with. 

I still vote sometimes and I will proudly continue to support all activism I agree with.

I don't feel alienated or upset and I am not getting even. I have lost nothing. I am simply doing what seems fair and just to me.

[KBCraig]

 

[Mark_FTL]

So, how will you determine who is a nonvoter?  Will you be keeping a list?

Will you inquire anytime a nonpolitical action is held as to if the organizer is a nonvoter?

Will your decision to avoid involvement and support be based on the organizer's voting status or the participants' voting status?  Please detail your system.

If someone refuses to answer whether they vote, will they be counted as a nonvoter? 

Implementation will be a real issue. I am not going to hunt around for those that don't vote, perhaps just the vocal ones. They would have to live in NH, obviously. They would have to be the "subject" of the civil disobedience, I would think that only fair.

[dalebert]

So we're good? We can all get on with our lives now and let this thread die? Awesome!

At this point I'm going to have to reneg on this comment and admit to finding Mark spinning on this issue to be endlessly entertaining. 

[FTL_Ian]

I think Mark is a Vote Nazi.

[Lloyd Danforth]

I'm not obsessing.  I'm not scape-goating non voters.  I'm just saying that voting can be a useful strategy at the local level to limit town government spending.  You could, conceivably, control a small town by growing a majority and then dismantle the more egregious things that the town gov does.
At the state level who knows?  Nothing like what is happening in NH has ever happened before!  How many libertarian State Representatives have been elected in other states in the last 35 years.
35 years ago we in the libertarian movement would have done anything to the attention of the average citizen.  Anarchists supported the LP thinking this would get libertarian philosophy into the mainstream. That failed. Looking back I know we did all that we could.  If I were a 20 something Anarchist today I would support reasonable political activity here in New Hampshire just out of curiosity if for no other reason.
Nothing like what is happening here in NH has ever happened before.  The economy tanking can only help.  Citizens who never came to town meeting before will be attending and talking 'Tar and feathers'.  
People like us will be paying for a seat!

[Mark_FTL]

I think Mark is a Vote Nazi.

those people who are namecalling ... should go suck an egg. 

[AntonLee]

those people who are namecalling because they feel like no one wants to help them should go suck an egg.  You can't force people to do things, so what you're going to go around making fun of people who choose to do different activism?

how juvenile.  Is that the way you get sales?  If they don't go along with the crap you're shoveling you start making fun of them and what they do?

Probably not right, because then you won't get anything but a dial tone.  Take a hint politicos.

Anton

I am not name-calling, trying to make anyone do anything, or making fun of anyone. If others are doing that, I wish they wouldn't, but as you say I can only control myself. I live with and interact with the out-of-the-system activists, thus I must decide how I deal with them and their activism. I believe that I have come up with a fair system. If they vote and I think they do good activism, I will try harder to participate. If they don't, even if I think it is good activism, I won't. Because I believe this is what they are doing to others. Does this make more sense?

as if anything you say doesn't make sense man!  I get it.  You want people to vote to help their neighbor.  I want people to help their neighbors too.  But it keeps coming back to that damn vote in your town.  I keep hearing you go on about how one vote might have saved all those people but for christ sakes how important was it if YOU aren't even going to change YOUR plans to vote. 

I said already, I probably would have sucked it up and went to vote just on the rare chance that it might have some positive effect.  I'd feel like an ass, I'd feel dirty, I'd feel like a prick, but I'd fucking do it.

Your system is fair enough for you.  I support your system for yourself.  What I take offense is the fact that you publicly said that they were aggressing against their neighbor for NOT voting.  I think that's horseshit.  Even if it was true, then you aggressed just as much as they did.  Why should I support things you like if you're not even willing to take the time to vote?  Was Florida going to fall into the Atlantic joining Atlantis underwater never to be visited by humans again?   I think you'd be in a better position in that circumstance if you actually DID vote yourself.  I don't disagree with your choice, not that it matters to you, but personally I feel time with friends (and family) does much more for the human psyche than going to a stupid polling place.

You're a quaker right?  I went to a quaker meeting in my own town and they were explaining to me after the meeting how they and many quakers don't believe in voting.  Do you belong to a friend group that does believe in voting?  I'm sure there are plenty that do vote. . . do you count yourself as one of those quakers?  Perhaps I'm just naive and I'm ready to admit that when I try out other quaker meetings to get a general feel for the group.

the namecalling on both sides should end.  If for nothing else, it doesn't help your causes.

[MaineShark]

I am not going to legitimize institutionalized violence by playing along in their "elections." I don't think an elected "official" has the right to vote on laws or taxes. I don't think they have the right to use violence against peaceful people because some idiot got some votes.

Statism is illegitimate.  End of story.  You can't "legitimize" it by voting.

Vote.  Don't vote.  Stand on your head on a street corner.  Eat tofu while riding a donkey in the woods.  Or do anything, and you still won't manage to "legitimize" their system, because that system is, by its very definition, illegitimate.

Whether voting is practical is a separate discussion.  But there is no way by which someone can magically legitimize an illegitimate system, just by making a mark on a piece of paper.

Joe

[FTL_Ian]

I can call Mark names.  I've earned it having to put up with his crap.  

Besides, it's not like I am just calling him a name rather than making a coherent point.

He's also a poopyhead.

[Mark_FTL]

as if anything you say doesn't make sense man!  I get it.  You want people to vote to help their neighbor.  I want people to help their neighbors too.  But it keeps coming back to that damn vote in your town.  I keep hearing you go on about how one vote might have saved all those people but for christ sakes how important was it if YOU aren't even going to change YOUR plans to vote. 

I said already, I probably would have sucked it up and went to vote just on the rare chance that it might have some positive effect.  I'd feel like an ass, I'd feel dirty, I'd feel like a prick, but I'd fucking do it.

Your system is fair enough for you.  I support your system for yourself.  What I take offense is the fact that you publicly said that they were aggressing against their neighbor for NOT voting.  I think that's horseshit.  Even if it was true, then you aggressed just as much as they did.  Why should I support things you like if you're not even willing to take the time to vote?  Was Florida going to fall into the Atlantic joining Atlantis underwater never to be visited by humans again?   I think you'd be in a better position in that circumstance if you actually DID vote yourself.  I don't disagree with your choice, not that it matters to you, but personally I feel time with friends (and family) does much more for the human psyche than going to a stupid polling place.

You're a quaker right?  I went to a quaker meeting in my own town and they were explaining to me after the meeting how they and many quakers don't believe in voting.  Do you belong to a friend group that does believe in voting?  I'm sure there are plenty that do vote. . . do you count yourself as one of those quakers?  Perhaps I'm just naive and I'm ready to admit that when I try out other quaker meetings to get a general feel for the group.

the namecalling on both sides should end.  If for nothing else, it doesn't help your causes.

You are right, I shouldn't have used the term "aggression". Not voting is not aggression.

As to why I didn't vote, I was in Florida begging the governor for a pardon. If I would have missed that I would have had to wait for 10 more years. I think that some reasons for missing a vote are more valid than others.

But I am not making my stand based on voting being the most expedient path to liberty. I don't know. None of us really do. I don't see anything as being the most beneficial, except working together and supporting our fellow Porcupines activism. I want to do that, and am attempting to provide a carrot (me attempting to make it to more activists' activism). If someone is pissed about my stand, they should ask themselves why?, and then attempt to apply their answer to the people on the other side.

[dalebert]

Statism is illegitimate.  End of story.  You can't "legitimize" it by voting.

There are a few definitions of legitimate that have to do with legalities, but outside of that it seems to be an issue of broad acceptance. In that sense, statism is legitimate. I know what you mean but I think you need to express that thought with a different word. The notion of voting legitimizing the system has merit in that it's used to give the illusion of choice and promote broad acceptance of their claims to authority and their violent behavior.