America's "Toughest Sheriff" caught enforcing laws he made-up

[thinkliberty]

Its like a guy dating a beautiful woman but comparing her to airbrushed models in magazines.  He dumps her thinking there are these perfect women based on the pictures he sees but they don't really exist.  That's how I see the perfect society, it's the airbrushed picture in the magazine.  It doesn't really exist other then in theory and every time people have tried to create it they've failed.

If you can show me examples in history of perfect societies I'd be the first to sign up and try to achieve it here.  The problem is they don't exist and we only have examples of near perfect societies that eventually devolve just as our country has.

You really believe that the government we have now is as good as it will ever be? No government has been or will ever be better?

[lildog]

You really believe that the government we have now is as good as it will ever be? No government has been or will ever be better?

I believe what our government started out as is the best it will ever be.  We've unfortunately allowed it to break its own rules (the Constitution) and grow into something it never should have.

But I look around the globe at other countries/ options and I do see even what we have today as the best option around right now.

[thinkliberty]

I believe what our government started out as is the best it will ever be.  We've unfortunately allowed it to break its own rules (the Constitution) and grow into something it never should have.

But I look around the globe at other countries/ options and I do see even what we have today as the best option around right now.

It started out allowing white people to own black people. Then it went downhill from there.

It was the best as long as you were a white man and sucked for everyone else.

[KBCraig]

Its like a guy dating a beautiful woman but comparing her to airbrushed models in magazines.  He dumps her thinking there are these perfect women based on the pictures he sees but they don't really exist.  That's how I see the perfect society, it's the airbrushed picture in the magazine.  It doesn't really exist other then in theory and every time people have tried to create it they've failed.

If you can show me examples in history of perfect societies I'd be the first to sign up and try to achieve it here.  The problem is they don't exist and we only have examples of near perfect societies that eventually devolve just as our country has.

I don't think any anarchists/minarchists/libertarians/agorists/voluntaryists are seeking perfection. They're seeking to be left alone, to be as perfect or imperfect as they can be.

It is advocates for government who seek utopia, or perfect, or "we can do it better than the last people". Those who believe in government's ability to "make things better" are the ones with an airbrushed fantasy.

[AntonLee]

2)  The Illegal Immigration zealots are usually racist.  I've been to a stupid jingoist meeting, 98% of them had some underlying hatred of the brown skinned folk.

The shear fact that you identify it as an issue "brown skinned folk" is a bit racist in and of itself.  I never once said anything about illegals from any one location.  For instance I'm aware of a very large population of Illegals from Ireland living in the Boston area so it has nothing to do with "brown" people.

3)  Social Security is a sham operation and people that have put money into it deserve nothing but to lose their money based on the stupidity of giving into yet another bullshit social experiment.

I agree.  But I fail to see why you point this out because I never brought it up.

4)  If you're worried about losing money to evil ee lee gulls, then stop paying the assholes that hand out the money.

Yeah, that worked out so well for the Browns.   

Those who avoid paying (income) taxes either end up in jail like the Browns or end up living unground lives living in lower standards of living and/or having to work odd under the table jobs.  You give up any chance of a "normal" life.  I'm sorry but that lifestyle isn't for me.

And while you work twice as hard to stay off the radar, you're really fooling yourself because you are still being raped and paying taxes. 
-If you rent, the property taxes are part of your rent.
-If you own and refuse to pay property taxes they'll take your home.
-If you drive a car you pay gas taxes and very likely tolls depending where you drive.
-If you purchase "sin" items like booze or cigarettes you're paying taxes.
-If eat out you pay meal taxes.
-If you register a car you pay taxes

Even businesses that would hire you, pay taxes on your behalf long before you ever see your pay check.

So even if you want to fool yourself into thinking your free... fact is your not.  You pay into the system the same as I.  And since I acknowledge my money is being stolen from me I do fight back about where it goes and at the very least attempt to have less taken from me.

all that?  I merely pointed out the fact that if you don't like illegal aliens coming here, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it short of using force.  If you don't like what you're paying for, then stop paying.  I know it's hard, almost impossible (but not).  It's a real fucking sad story isn't it?  What's sadder is that you intend on using the money I'd like to keep for your own little bullshit ideals for what you think should be done with ee lee gulls.

Stop spending MY money for what YOU want.  Isn't that sort of a first step towards libertarianism, the idea that you might have to actually pay for your own things and not steal from others?

Your constitution can blow me, it's paper written by men who are dead and has never had anything to do with any consent I may or may not have given it at any time in my life.  If your constitution says illegals aren't allowed, it simply doesn't matter.  All you have to use is force, no logic, no reasoning. . . just force.

You don't need to express the virtues of the jingoistic illegal alien hater, it flows from your talking points hiding the excuses for the protectionist ideas you foster.  You want rules like that, go buy some property and make your own rules.  I could give two shits then. 

I get it, okay. . . I was where you were.  The rules are the rules, the immigrants I worry about are the Irish (bullshit), they don't pay taxes (most do), they're stealing Social Security (bullshit program on it's face, everyone steals from it eventually), there's no room for them (c'mon lol), changing our culture (assholes speaking english versus assholes speaking spanish), and on and on and on.

the book that you're writing has already been written hundreds of times over by protectionist jerks all over the country.  I read the book.  I followed the book.  I gave the talking points just like you.  I was a good little robot.  I took the book and made it into toilet paper, just as it deserved.

[MaineShark]

Its like a guy dating a beautiful woman but comparing her to airbrushed models in magazines.  He dumps her thinking there are these perfect women based on the pictures he sees but they don't really exist.  That's how I see the perfect society, it's the airbrushed picture in the magazine.  It doesn't really exist other then in theory and every time people have tried to create it they've failed.

If you can show me examples in history of perfect societies I'd be the first to sign up and try to achieve it here.  The problem is they don't exist and we only have examples of near perfect societies that eventually devolve just as our country has.

I don't think any anarchists/minarchists/libertarians/agorists/voluntaryists are seeking perfection. They're seeking to be left alone, to be as perfect or imperfect as they can be.

It is advocates for government who seek utopia, or perfect, or "we can do it better than the last people". Those who believe in government's ability to "make things better" are the ones with an airbrushed fantasy.

Indeed.

"This time it will be different from all the times before" is the constant refrain of the Statists.  "This time, we'll hit on the magic formula and turn lead into gold create a State that doesn't devolve into tyranny," they say.

Sorry, but it ain't going to work.  Experience proves that.  Voluntary society has worked at many times.  It's only failed when overwhelming force was used to destroy it.  Now that the technology exists to render individuals equal, and greater numbers are embracing the ideas of voluntary interaction, that issue is demonstrably ceasing to be what it once was.  It won't be long before we hit the tipping point, where there are enough armed individuals who can band together and demand that their rights be respected, and make the cost of failing in that regard so high that no State can pay it.

We don't expect to find perfection.  We merely expect to find the best possible situation in an imperfect world.  We may not succeed.  If we embrace failed ideas like Statism, we certainly won't.

Joe

[lildog]

Your dream of anarchy has the same flaws you point to with government.  Might makes right.

You say to hell with the Constitution, rules of law etc but what happens when someone walks in and says they have the "right" to all your land and to be allowed by their faith to rape your mother/sister/ daughter/ wife or even you?

You'll defend yourself right?  That works only if you're the fastest draw or they don't get a jump on you in your sleep.  Or perhaps they just outnumber you.

Without government they storm in, kill you, rape the women then keep your land and anything else they find of value as their own.  There are no rules and no "establishment" to protect you.

Your neighbors want to be left alone so they don't want to get involved.

You can say all you want this wouldn't happen but it does time and time again.  Religious leaders convince the weak minded to murder and kill.  People promising the care for everyone who follows them can convince people to murder and kill.

Plato wrote about this back in his time pointing out there are 3 groups of people in civilizations.  The leaders will always step up and use the followers to grow their power.

I'm simply acknowledging that there will always be leaders and followers.  You're pretending that there wont be.

[lildog]

Voluntary society has worked at many times.

Where and when?

It's only failed when overwhelming force was used to destroy it.

That's what I'm talking about... anywhere in history a "voluntary society" has tried to establish itself it created a vacuum.  Those who seek to control and rule move into that vacuum by force if needed to control anything and everything.  There needs to be some level of protect from outside force.

  Now that the technology exists to render individuals equal, and greater numbers are embracing the ideas of voluntary interaction, that issue is demonstrably ceasing to be what it once was.  It won't be long before we hit the tipping point, where there are enough armed individuals who can band together and demand that their rights be respected, and make the cost of failing in that regard so high that no State can pay it.

The problem I see with this is we are seeing right now with Muslim extremists that the "state" can sometimes exist without borders, held together instead by common faith.  People have done a lot of horrible things to one another in the name of their faiths.

It comes down to might makes right.  If the "faithful" out number and out gun you then what protection do you have?  If you unite to protect yourselves eventually leaders will rise up to help guide your group through fighting back and you eventually are back in the same place you were before.  The leaders wont give up power and without rules already established to keep them in check they themselves will be able to get away with anything they can convince their followers of.

[MaineShark]

You say to hell with the Constitution, rules of law etc but what happens when someone walks in and says they have the "right" to all your land and to be allowed by their faith to rape your mother/sister/ daughter/ wife or even you?

You'll defend yourself right?  That works only if you're the fastest draw or they don't get a jump on you in your sleep.  Or perhaps they just outnumber you.

Without government they storm in, kill you, rape the women then keep your land and anything else they find of value as their own.  There are no rules and no "establishment" to protect you.

And with a State, they just get jobs working for the State, and do it with legal protection.

I'll take my chances on my own, and with the help of those who voluntarily agree to help me, rather than turn over control to a system that has done everything you describe, and worse.

In the last century, Statism murdered a quarter of a billion men, women, and children.  And maimed, tortured, raped, starved, beat, oppressed, and enslaved billions more.

Amateur thugs couldn't hope to keep up a record like the professional thugs have managed.

Joe

[thinkliberty]

Your dream of anarchy has the same flaws you point to with government.  Might makes right.

You say to hell with the Constitution, rules of law etc but what happens when someone walks in and says they have the "right" to all your land and to be allowed by their faith to rape your mother/sister/ daughter/ wife or even you?

You'll defend yourself right?  That works only if you're the fastest draw or they don't get a jump on you in your sleep.  Or perhaps they just outnumber you.

Without government they storm in, kill you, rape the women then keep your land and anything else they find of value as their own.  There are no rules and no "establishment" to protect you.

Your neighbors want to be left alone so they don't want to get involved.

You can say all you want this wouldn't happen but it does time and time again.  Religious leaders convince the weak minded to murder and kill.  People promising the care for everyone who follows them can convince people to murder and kill.

Plato wrote about this back in his time pointing out there are 3 groups of people in civilizations.  The leaders will always step up and use the followers to grow their power.

I'm simply acknowledging that there will always be leaders and followers.  You're pretending that there wont be.

But what happens when your government walks in and says they have the "right" to all your land and to be allowed by their faith. Then they just take it and send you and your wife  to prison for the rest of your life like they did do the Browns? 

You'll defend yourself right?  That works only if you're the fastest draw or they don't get a jump on you in your sleep.  Or perhaps they just outnumber you.

The government, they storm in, kidnap you and the woman you love, then keep your land and anything else they find of value as their own.  There are no rules and no "establishment" to protect you. In other countries these same men will rape, kill and torture people for fun.

Your neighbors want to be left alone so they don't want to get involved.

You can say all you want this wouldn't happen but it does time and time again.  The Religious leaders of statism convince the weak minded to murder and kill.  People promising the care for everyone who follows them can convince people to murder and kill. They tell you that the constitution allows them to do this.

I'm simply acknowledging that there will always be leaders and followers and that I just want to be left alone.  I will not support any person or organization that wants to use violence to get what they want from other people.

You're just simply supporting the weak minded murders, extortioners, fraudsters and the control freaks that lead them.

Please stop supporting monsters that commit violence against peaceful people.

Please give peace a chance. 

[AntonLee]

I'm tired of debating with fascists.  If you want a government, I suggest you go get a legitimate one.  You might find Jimmy Hoffa's body before you stumble upon one.

You can have your rules, on your property.  My property doesn't belong to you.  Just a friendly reminder.  Thanks for being such a good sport.

[Jacobus]

+1 to thinkliberty for doing what I was also thinking of when reading lildog's post.

And +1 to Dale for providing the best answer to this:

Without government they storm in, kill you, rape the women then keep your land and anything else they find of value as their own.  There are no rules and no "establishment" to protect you.

[CJS]

 I get really confused sometimes , and I just want to ask a few questions .. I swear I am not trying to troll .

I'm tired of debating with fascists.  If you want a government, I suggest you go get a legitimate one. 

Is a person a fascist if they want the limited fed gov promised by the Constitution ?   Would I be considered a fascist simply because I am not an anarchist ?  No one who has ever known me would ever consider me a statist .... my good friends would laugh , my best friends might get pissed ..lol

I shudder to think what would happen in the biggest cities if there were no centralized gov., I think we got a real taste of that here in the US during the aftermath of Catrina .

In smaller communities where people are more interdependent on each other for survival volunteerism may work .... but no where I have ever lived .

I have to agree with lildog ... people want a leader ... and a lot of the time that ends up becoming a bad thing

Could some one answer this question ?

Where and when have volunteer societies lasted ? 

Thanks ... and remember , I came here with an open mind

[AntonLee]

your constitution?  your government is funded with stolen dollars.  Like I've said a hundred times, you are the one worried about anarchy, I am not.  You are the one scared of what will happen to cities, I am not.  I am afraid of the things that go bump in the night. . .therefore you should pay to alleviate my fears.

no, no and no.  I wouldn't think to make you pay for things I'm scared of.  Please refrain from supporting some bullshit idea that makes me pay for yours.

[Jacobus]

Where and when have volunteer societies lasted ?

The volunteer Scotch Malt Whisky Society has existed since 1983.  There are likely thousands of other self-described volunteer societies that have as well, and many for much longer.

Maybe that's not what you meant by "society", but if you are asking if there has ever existed a large geographic area where absolutely no violence ever occurred, then of course the answer is no.

Even under today's governments, most interactions are based on purely voluntary means.  I'd point to the peaceful, self-organizing relationships among individuals, families, and market participants as voluntary society, and the violent intrusion of government as the (ever-growing) exception.

If you insist on someone pointing you to where you can draw an imaginary line around some land mass to designate a "society", then you could do worse than the Amish settlements.  They have a highly strict set of rules that govern most day-to-day living, and yet they exist voluntarily without any need of police or prisons.