Talking to future in laws about not getting a marriage license.

[jnacoustic]

My Fiance mentioned to her parents that we wont be getting a marriage license. It came up in conversation apparently. I wasnt there, but it seems like she and her parents handled it pretty well.

You see they have set aside a wedding fund for her future wedding. We are basically picking a venue soon. Within days.

Her mother is very concerned that the wedding will not be legitimate without a license and would like us to get one. For the record I believe the state has no right to give any permission or to deny marriage in anyway. In fact it has nothing to do with my fiance and I what so ever. Thats her position as well.

Anyway if anyone has any charismatic ideas (wrong place for this?? lol ) for talking to her mother about this, that would be great. Her parents are some of the most wonderful charitable and happy people I have ever met. They do so much for us and I want to do my best to preserve the good relationship we currently have.

your ideas are appreciated!

Thank you!
Josh

[K. Darien Freeheart]

The only thing I can do is explain your position clearly and simply. Don't argue over it because you'll never win. Likely, if they care about you both, they'll understand and perhaps even agree with your wishes even if they don't share the motivations.

That said, be prepared. Other people's money almost always comes with strings. Be prepared for them to give you an ultimatum and "by prepared" I mean make it clear to your wife-to-be what your opinions are. She might want a storybook wedding more than she wants to avoid state involvement and you guys need to clearly communicate on what you want and will comprimise for.

Now, I'll say one more thing though this is a value judgement on my part and might not reflect yours. To me, marriage has ALWAYS been a "legal thing". Even before I was of a pro-liberty mindset, marriage was just a legal formality to gain certain rights for us as a couple. Marriage holds no religious or personal signifigance for me, even though the relationships with people I love ARE very important.

You might well do the ceremony. It might be a union before God if that's your belief but your in-laws are right. In today's society, marriage IS merely a legal formality and it will NOT be legally binding unless you comply with the laws. This might be fine for you; there are ways of granting your loved ones the same (and more) rights without legal marriage but it's a bit more difficult. You're also going to get the statist family members (my mother-in-law is one...) who point out that you're not "really" married.

[jnacoustic]

Kevin,
How would getting a license make it any more legally binding than having a list of witnesses a marriage certificate signed by the one who married us, and a marriage contract between the two of us?

How often is anyone asked to see their marriage license?

Does this mean that prior to marriage licenses marriages were not legaly binding?

Some states recognize common law marriage, no license is ever obtained. I dont care if the state recognizes my marriage. In fact its fine with me if they dont even know I exist. I think a certificate, witness list and marriage contract will be good enough for any private agency (such as insurance) that I deal with.

My fiance is 100% with me on this fortunately and we would be fine with a backyard ceremony and a BBQ. Her mother would like the fairy-tale wedding. Which is more than OK with us as well. They are really great people.

[MaineShark]

It likely also depends upon their views.

For example, the marriage license system was created largely to prevent marriages (by denying of the license) for discriminatory purposes, be they racial (prohibiting mixed-race marriage), sexual (eg, prohibiting gay marriage), or other (eg, attempts at eugenics).  To someone offended by racism, for example, refusal to partake of a system with such racist roots might be viewed as quite worthy.

Someone who believes in prohibiting inter-racial marriage would obviously not have the same opinion.

So the correct explanation will likely depend upon who you are trying to explain it to.

Another point to make is that the license grants "permission" to get married, and is not, in and of itself, the marriage.  The marriage is the agreement between the spouses.  Similarly, driving is the act of operating a vehicle on a road.  A driver's license is a grant of permission to do so, but the license, in and of itself, obviously has nothing to do with the operation of the vehicle.

Joe

[MaineShark]

How would getting a license make it any more legally binding than having a list of witnesses a marriage certificate signed by the one who married us, and a marriage contract between the two of us?

Well, the legal folks don't like when you don't do things their way, so they would likely refuse to recognize a marriage without a license, just out of spite.

How often is anyone asked to see their marriage license?

My wife and I have never been asked.

Does this mean that prior to marriage licenses marriages were not legaly binding?

Hardly.  The Wikipedia article on marriage licenses gives a very brief history of licensure, and how things were prior.

Some states recognize common law marriage, no license is ever obtained. I dont care if the state recognizes my marriage. In fact its fine with me if they dont even know I exist. I think a certificate, witness list and marriage contract will be good enough for any private agency (such as insurance) that I deal with.

That will vary from individual to individual.  I've never been asked to produce a license, so it's a moot point, I expect, in the majority of situations.

For the record, NH recognizes common-law marriage, subsequent to the death of one of the members.  So, even if you don't do a will, probate courts in NH would still be required to treat the marriage the same as if it were licensed, as long as you met the common-law standards.

Joe

[BillKauffman]

I would be interested in anyone having a link to "types of contracts" that cover most of the benefits of a marriage license in NH??

[AntonLee]

I'm kinda sad to say that I'm sure I'll be getting one of those pieces of paper only because my girlfriend wants in writing that I'll be her husbund for whatever myriad of reasons.  She understands why I don't want one, she just wants the "positives" of having one.  I don't see any myself.

We're planning on a Quaker wedding followed by a sort of "flash" wedding.  We plan on having our guests show up to the beach, park their cars, put on their flip flops, and head out to the sand where we'll be standing with Jaime's uncle (a former minister) who would give our vows.  I will not give in on one thing.  I will not have any person who is running our wedding say anything like "by the power vested in me by the state of NH". . . I don't give a shit about who thinks I should be married or not.  Over my dead body will someone bring the state into my ceremony of professing love for my girlfriend/fiance.

Then we're going to a nice restaurant for a reception right near the beach.  Then I hope to get a bag and drive to Florida for a honeymoon. 

subject to change.

[MaineShark]

I'm kinda sad to say that I'm sure I'll be getting one of those pieces of paper only because my girlfriend wants in writing that I'll be her husbund for whatever myriad of reasons.  She understands why I don't want one, she just wants the "positives" of having one.  I don't see any myself.

My wife and I have a marriage certificate.  It doesn't involve the State, but it's still a written certificate/contract.  It's a beautiful piece of calligraphy (much better than those lousy State forms).

Maybe show her how much nicer a non-state piece of paper can be.  She might get excited about the idea of designing her own.

Joe

[porcupine kate]

You will need to explain to her family that you are not using the lack of a marriage license to get out of committing to the marriage.   You need to convey that you are joining as life long partners.  Also explain why you want to contract between the two of you and exactly how you are going to do that. 

The way Alec and I handled it with his family was to explain that we were going to have other contracts written between us to cover most of the legal aspects of the marriage contract.
Including
A Will
Durable power of attorney
Medical directive
Me legally changing my name to match his.
Going through and changing all the beneficiaries on insurance, retirement accounts etc.

All of these things can be done before the wedding if that makes it easier for her parents to accept.
Do make sure you get these done. 

In most states if something happens two one of you and you don't have this paperwork in place medical decisions are made by and the estate goes to the parents not the significant other.  If you have children together the child will be the beneficiary and the courts can chose the trustee of the estate.  In NH common law marriage does apply in the case of inheritance after you have been living together in NH for 3 years.

These are the types of things gay couples do to legally join their families on their terms.

Keep in mind you may not be able to both adopt a child or use a surrogate to carry a child without a state issue marriage license.

If you go to the Social security Admin to change your marriage status they accept the laws and regulations of the state you get married in and file the paperwork in.  This means it can vary depending on the state.  In NH the only definition of marriage is with a marriage license from the state.  The SS card is important if you want to take advantage of the tax reduction bribe to get you to comply.

Good luck.

[AntonLee]

good info Kate!

[Mike Barskey]

My wife and I have a marriage certificate.  It doesn't involve the State, but it's still a written certificate/contract.  It's a beautiful piece of calligraphy (much better than those lousy State forms).

Maybe show her how much nicer a non-state piece of paper can be.  She might get excited about the idea of designing her own.

That's awesome! If the pro-marriage-license person is just spouting rhetoric without understanding it, this would be a great way to either get out of the confrontation or to point out the silliness of their position. They would either think that a custom-made certificate is the same thing and thus would be honored that you asked that they make your marriage license; or they might realize the impotency a piece of paper has in validating the marriage. I like it!

[doobie]

My primary reason to get a license from the government is then my company would allow her to be on my insurance.  Of course I/we don't know yet if that is worth it or not.  Esp since taxes would likely go way up for both of us.

[gibson042]

I think a certificate, witness list and marriage contract will be good enough for any private agency (such as insurance) that I deal with.

I wouldn't be too sure.  The existence of marriage licenses means that insurance companies shy away from covering significant others without them.  You should look into this first, but I know that at least Blue Care Network and Midwest Security require spouses to be licensed.

[Tom Sawyer]

We never got our Permit to Fornicate from the government... 20+ years and we haven't killed each other yet.

I crack up when someone that has been state married, after realizing we aren't, tries to give us "advice" on the subject...
I'll ask, "How long you and your wife been together?" and they say "5 years!" ...  come back with your "advice" in another decade, then I might think you know what you're talking about. 

For a time, relatives wished we were officially married. But, even the most socially conservative of our relatives are just fine with it now.

I can't speak much to all the "legal" ramifications... we don't go in for most of the issues that might be connected to the state document. The wife can take your name if she wants... and I believe that the desire to divorce is reduced because of less potential "reward", that the government system seems to create. You realize that you have to work it out instead of looking to "punchout"... got to keep flying the plane. Lots of ups and downs in a marriage... hanging in there and working it out means you don't just throw it away cause it gets tough.

[TackleTheWorld]

We've gotten jobs, insurance, bought and sold real estate and overseen medical treatments without being asked to show a marriage license. 
What else?
Divorce could be sticky, Anyone have to show a marriage license for that?
Inheritance could be trouble.  Anyone have experience with showing licenses for that?