You're not going to get laid. Inspired by Rogers Libertain Flash thread.

[porcupine kate]

This is for all the young single guys out there with the self righteous libertarian flash.  This particularly applies to the guys who want their liberty right now with little or no respect for others property, social norms and customs.

You're not going to to get laid going on like that.

If you do you'll have a very hard time keeping a nice girl around.  Trust me on this one since I have quite a few pro-liberty girlfriends who would never date any of you since you don't have your act together.  These women rarely stay single (myself included).  Most of the single women I know in the liberty movement come to it from the personal responsibility & economics side, not the "liberty to do what ever I want whenever I want" side.  They know at the end of the day that they're the only ones who'll make sure everything is done and taken care of in their lives.  These women are all tough cookies that have seen enough of the bad side of life to take responsibility for their security, finances, health and happiness.  (I will admit we do have a few ladies that don't fit this description. Most of them don't last long here or they are not my friends.)

Many of you men want a hot, pro-liberty, activist, responsible doer of a lady.   What do you have to bring to the table?  Women have a large pool to chose from.  Your odds are not good - and from the ladies' perspective, most of the goods are odd.  You need to stand out in a positive way.

Manners and Social Norms 
The guys with average to better-than-average social skills will get noticed.  We ladies talk at least twice a year about the need for a porcupine "charm school" to teach social skills.  It's always followed by the realization that those who need it most wouldn't show up.  How do you think you'll inspire others and change people's minds if you make people uncomfortable?   We see this all the time.  We want to bang our heads on the wall as we watch you alienate another person to the liberty cause, while you have no idea you're even doing it.   It's getting bad enough I am being asked to speak about being a Freestater so the general public can see we are not all a bunch of ill-mannered fringe nut jobs.  Seriously.  It doesn't matter if you are one or not.  If you're perceived as one you have lost your  your battle.  I think most of us could use manners, etiquette and sales training.  This would be a huge boost to the movement no matter where you are on the liberty path.  Like it or not you are selling the idea of liberty.  Your sales ratios suck.

Being Polite
The guys who are polite in public and on the Internet are going to get more notice.  We don't like rude behavior.  We rip our hair out and get quite frustrated watching some idealistic moron drop some verbal bomb and completely alienate the poor person they're trying to communicate an idea to.   Being rude is worse than being wrong.  Get off your moral high horse and figure out a to show people a better way instead of telling them that what they're doing is wrong.  ALWAYS be nice about it.  Look at the effectiveness of the nicest activists.  They are doing a much better job then the flaming verbal-bomb-droppers that piss off locals and other activists even when they're right.

Be Responsible
This is huge.  The guys who can manage their lives in a responsible fashion also get noticed.  Walk the walk.  Most of us ladies grew up with more responsibility than average kids.  As grown-ups we don't want to carry your sorry ass.  Practice what you preach.  It is not impressive if you're being an activist but are mooching off of others, can't pay your bills, or owe another porcupine money for months.  Buying pot before you pay the rent isn't going to win you any fans other than pot moochers. We don't expect a guy to be rich.  We do expect you to live within your means.  We do expect you to pay your own bills on time and take care of your own life.  We expect you to stay out of trouble.  We don't want to hear about how you can't pay your bills or how you were screwed by such and such.  We don't care.  If you can't get your act together you're still a loser even if you're a principled loser.  With so many decent pro-liberty guys out there why should we put up with a train wreck?  If you can't manage your own life in a responsible manor then how are you going to encourage others to take full responsibility for theirs?   

Be Productive
Produce something of value.  They guys who are productively working on ways to help liberty in the state without pissing off other people get noticed. This applies to in- and out-of-system people.  Why would I want to hang out with a bunch of people who just wine about their lives and how everyone else is wrong?  If I wanted that I'd call my mother.  We moved here to do something about our quality of life.   How are you working on building viable replacements for various government institutions?  How are you showing the locals that there are real benefits to changing the way they live their lives?  How are you helping other people make the decision to up-root their lives and move somewhere else and start over at great cost?  It doesn't matter if you're working in-system or out-of-system.  What are you doing to make NH a better place for everyone to live?  I see way more talk than action.  A lot of the action I see is destructive, not in what it is trying to do but how it is executed.  Little changes to make it more polite and palatable to the public will make the activism more effective.  We don't need to impress the other anarchists but this seems to be what a lot of people care about.  We need to impress the poor saps who don't know that the status quo big government is hurting them.  We need to show them better way and not tell them they are wrong while insulting them.  You guys have mastered insulting people.

To sum it up, a guy who is polite, well mannered, responsible, a good activist, and a caring individual can find a great pro-liberty lady as long as he actually goes out and makes and effort to date her.  Dating is like activism.  If you do nothing, nothing positive will happen.

[Kat Kanning]

You go, lady!

[Sovereign Curtis]

Your sales ratios suck.

THEMS FIGHTIN WORDS! 

[Becky Thatcher]

Well said, Kate!! 

[Sam A. Robrin]

Having navigated the minefield of dating in the 1980s and -90s, I can attest that when it comes to relationships, it's a matter of "Be careful what you wish for--you might get it."
Also keep in mind, gents, that when she carps like this in the early stages of the relationship, it isn't going to improve over time.
What men want, Kate, and what women think men want aren't the same thing.  What men don't want--but usually get--is someone who wants to latch on, drain them of every aspect that initially attracted her, take what they can get materially, then move on to the next sucker and repeat the process.

[porcupine kate]

Your sales ratios suck.

THEMS FIGHTIN WORDS! 

Sovereign Curtis.
Bring em on.   
Having been in sales for 13 years or so I know how to sell.  Liberty and personal responsibility are hard to sell.  That is what you are trying to do.  If you were convincing 2 out of every five people liberty was the way to go your sales ratios would be great.  1 in ten is average for a professional sales person.  We are not convincing 1 in 10 people we encounter. 
My sales ratios regarding liberty suck too.  We all need to work harder and smarter on this.

[porcupine kate]

Sam A Robrin.

Sam I understand where you are coming from.  I to had problems with guys dating in the 80's and 90's.  A mooch is always going to look for a producer and will tap them dry if they can get away with it.  We do have women who do want someone to take care of them while she sucks a guy dry.  I'm not talking about them.  Most (not all) guys can figure out how to stay away from them.

If you are looking for a women who really stands for personal responsibility you had better have your act together.  She isn't looking for a mooch or a dead weight.  She has better things to do with her time like being productive.  These women are much harder to find.

Sam I don't know if we have ever met.  Those who know me know I am not a nag or a mooch.  I am one of the nicest people you will ever meet.  You may think I full of crap about that but ask around I am not know for being mean or spiteful.  I have had cause in my life to be a bitch but I am not.  I am more about finding solutions and working on projects and teaching people a better way of doing things.  Go ahead and check my references. 

I wrote this because I have been seeing so much destructive and misguided effort in regards to the liberty movement.  I figured after almost a decade of listen to pro liberty guys talk about how they can't get a date and everyone bitching an moaning about how bad everyone is behaving I thought I would link the two so more people would read it.  They are related.  There are quite a few people in the movement who never stop and take a look at how the rest of the world perceives them.  If they did they would easily find more and better ways of communicating to world around them.

Kate

[Sovereign Curtis]

You are not going to to get laid going on like that.  If you do you will have a very hard time keeping a nice girl around. 

You've made some pretty illogical assumptions here, Kate.

1. Not all single male "porcupines" are looking to settle down with some nice girl.

2. Getting laid =/= "keeping a nice girl around"

3. The size of the single female "porcupine" pool is quite insignificant, when compared to the single, female populations in close proximity.


Here's my extrapolation. Non-single porcupine females berating single porcupine males, will only encourage said males to quit chasing the four available single porcupine women, and instead focus on the large pool of dirty, ready to party, girls next door. Really, you in particular are in no position to make demands of the single male population, but lets assume you were single, and available, and willing, if only....[insert hangup here]..., your "suggestions" would likely encourage the single males out there to move on. Really, why should I sword fight 700 other "porcupine" males for the attention of a handful of single female porcupine ladies, when there are oh-so-many opportunities just around the corner?

Shit, the planet is 51% female, and I like Asians. My pool > Your pool. 

[FTL_Ian]

According to population data, there are 2,000 more women than men in Keene.  That's over 54% of the population.  (Though, they could all be over 65.    )

That aside, certainly some of Kate's advice is good for anyone, male or female.  Also some things she referenced, I wonder what she's getting at?  Kate, when you said you see things that are "destructive" as far as activism is concerned, to what are you referring?

[porcupine kate]

Sovereign Curtis.
I have never claimed to be logical.

My view is from that of someone with quite a few friends in the late 20's to early 40's that have at one time or another complained about not being able to meet a pro liberty single lady. 

The young ones in college towns will always find someone to hook up with if they go out and find them.  As you get older this is harder to do.  Not impossible, but most women I have known get pickier with age and start looking for something longer term.

By all means go and meet the locals.  This is something I have been saying for years.  Some porcupines have found great friends and partners here in NH.  Some have even found spouses.   

They guys who haven't figured out how to get a date or persuade anyone on the benefits of liberty need to start looking at themselves and see how they can charge their behavior to make their lives better.

[porcupine kate]

According to population data, there are 2,000 more women than men in Keene.  That's over 54% of the population.  (Though, they could all be over 65.    )

That aside, certainly some of Kate's advice is good for anyone, male or female.  Also some things she referenced, I wonder what she's getting at?  Kate, when you said you see things that are "destructive" as far as activism is concerned, to what are you referring?

Ian.  Some of the destructive behavior I have seen is people yelling and insulting each other over a way something was done.  From My view in Porc Central it appears we have a growing divide between in system and out of system people.  This is coming from both sides.  It kills me that a bunch of people feel offended and that they are being told what they are doing is all wrong.  This is all coming from pro liberty people.  People also complain that socially we are become cliquish like high schools.  I see it happening and it is only going to hurt us in the long run. 

You don't have to like everyone.   I do think you need to be polite to each other.  I do think bad behavior is encouraged to an extent in each social circle.  I think we have a lot of growing up to do.  We are suffering from a large group of individualist, anti social type forming a rather large social group.  Most people move here and encounter a group of peers for the first time.  Quite a few of them don't know what to do and they fumble about and don't realize they are stepping on toes.  Everyone is trying to figure out how to fit in right away and often times they annoy the people around them local and pro liberty a like.  If you are annoying the people around you, you are going to have a harder time getting things done. We are not doing a good job of attracting  people with a happy pleasant message.  I see a bunch of people trying to show everyone the government is bad and their rules are stupid.  It is a good an worthy goal.  Doing it while cursing in front of small children, at a family event may not be the most effective way to gain local support.  Outreach should try to reach out to people not just offend them before they can see your point. 

I also see a need to encourage more personal responsibility.  Not only for your own life but the property of others.  Porc Fest 2009 was a glaring example of this.  Having people tripping over you tent lines repeatedly in the night because they are too drunk or lazy to walk on the path drove me nuts.  Having people show up at my campsite uninvited and want to be feed or use our equipment just because we thought to bring it.  I am not part of the free lunch project.  Having equipment disappear over the weekend wasn't fun either.  Bad handling of alcohol, drugs, firearms, just being rude is not enjoying liberty it is being not irresponsible, reckless and dangerous to others.

In the long run I think we need to use personal responsibility to show people that it is a better way to live and we need to build alternatives to government.  We have ways to show governments are bad.  What do we have to show people that is a viable replacement to government.  We can't win hearts and minds until we can show them a better way.  Most of the activism doesn't capitalize on showing people a better way.  We are showing people what is wrong government but what is the point if we can't fix it or show people a better way with out it.

Message is good our delivery needs  lot of work.
Kate

[Puke]

I think I'll become a monk...

[AntonLee]

I appreciate your messages Kate even if I disagree with some of your thoughts.  What I don't disagree on is what you've found that your pro-liberty female friends look for.  I hear that from my lady friends all the time, especially ones that are not looking for a liberty activist guy.  I was lucky enough to be able to find a girl from the beginning who was pro-liberty without even knowing about the concept.  Lucky for me she enjoys my company and ideals and my hot body.

lol

but seriously:  the one part I really do kind of take issue with is the "social norms" aspect.  Lots of things are social norms that I simply no longer agree with and find myself quite often preaching about:  Peace.  I see the social norm as being "support the troops" "the government is stupid but good" and "wars have to be fought".  I discredit those "normal" ideas and quite often become very frustrated with people who claim to want peace and without taking a breath describe how they would wage war in the manner they see fit.  I guess when I was someone that supported troops killing people, when I supported government stealing money (for any reason), etc. . .I had to feel like someone was putting me down in order for it to get through my head. 

I wasn't swayed by "polite" anarchists. . . it was much more effective for me to hear about how I was warmongering racist bigoted prick.  What I'll concede is the two words most important in the last sentence;  FOR ME doesn't apply to most or even many.  My tone is abrasive, my words are sometimes hard for others to hear.  In some cases, people assume that I'm trying to make friends with people who have not yet decided that the principles I have are worth having. 

That's fine to me, in fact it's fine if they never get the principles at all.  What I do expect is that my principles will be respected and my life will be left alone by others.  After all, isn't that what most libertarians would want most. . . to be left alone?

My girlfriend doesn't quite fit your poll data.  When she met me I was broke but saving, but had a job and lived with my parents.  I had my own car and was working to quit habits that were detrimental or continuing to remain sober (alcohol/cigarettes).  This girl saw past what most girls would consider very bad things to see what was really inside.  While I come across abrasive online, she saw that I was quite polite and gentlemanly in real life.  Some people, I feel, take the internet business much too seriously whereas I do not.

with that said, your first line is what I mostly take issue with. 

This is for all the young single guys out there with the self righteous libertarian flash.  This particularly applies to the guys who want their liberty right now with little or no respect for others property, social norms and customs.

I am one that wants my liberty not now, RIGHT now.  It's not only up to me to take my liberty where I can and when I can. . .it's up to others to be human enough to allow me my freedom even if it coincides with their moral structure and indoctrination.  I don't go around knocking over the manger with baby Jesus just because I disagree with Christianity.  That's a social norm and custom that has absolutely nothing to do with my life or liberty.  I disagree with it, I find it ridiculous and a waste of time.  I openly exclaim over and over about how these people have the absolute right to embrace their traditions and customs as they see fit, just so long as it doesn't harm others.  Of course, the majority of people in the country seem to think that the social custom or norms that they're used to are the only ones that truly matter and the others must give in to what they have deemed to be the prevailing custom.  I disagree wholeheartedly and often get into arguments with others because they're not willing to allow me my customs. 

My customs, that being complete freedom, harms no one and should be held to the same level as any custom.  If I decide to grow pot on my lawn, that harms no one, is my tradition, and should be respected.  It is not respected, I would be thrown into a jail cell.  I would never again think to do that to someone else.

I also see a need to encourage more personal responsibility.  Not only for your own life but the property of others.  Porc Fest 2009 was a glaring example of this.  Having people tripping over you tent lines repeatedly in the night because they are too drunk or lazy to walk on the path drove me nuts.  Having people show up at my campsite uninvited and want to be feed or use our equipment just because we thought to bring it.  I am not part of the free lunch project.  Having equipment disappear over the weekend wasn't fun either.  Bad handling of alcohol, drugs, firearms, just being rude is not enjoying liberty it is being not irresponsible, reckless and dangerous to others.

I couldn't agree more.  If myself and Jaime get up to porcfest I hope to make your acquaintance.  I can promise that I won't be tripping over your tent or taking your things.  I can't promise you won't smell cannabis on me lol. 

[MaineShark]

Some of the destructive behavior I have seen is people yelling and insulting each other over a way something was done.  From My view in Porc Central it appears we have a growing divide between in system and out of system people.  This is coming from both sides.  It kills me that a bunch of people feel offended and that they are being told what they are doing is all wrong.

Is that the case?  I think the actual divide is between those who support the system (eg, minarchists) and those who don't (ie, anarchists).  I'm sure there are individuals who differ from that but, by and large, it seems to be support for the system that is the actual divide.  As you know, I'm pretty much as die-hard of an anarchist as they come, but I'm perfectly happy to use the political system against itself, if practical.  I don't expect the State is going to vanish overnight, but that's my eventual goal, and if I can get it to tear itself part of the way down, I'm all for that.  The vast majority of anarchists in my acquaintance agree on that point.  The thing is, there is a significant divide between an anarchist and even the most minimal of minarchists.  The divide is real, and can't just go away.  It doesn't have to do with activism, though; it has to do with the goals of that activism.

You don't have to like everyone.   I do think you need to be polite to each other.

I agree, to an extent.  Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.  For example, when we're teaching a class, it's all well and good to be pro-gun, but being too vocal about it can alienate students who are nowhere near as far along the road (and may never have touched a gun before that day).  "The evil pigs and that psycho in the Whitehouse" might be accurate descriptions, but that level of derision can shut other's minds.

On the other hand, there are individuals who have harmed others, and not made restitution to their victims.  While the minimum level of personal responsibility means being responsible solely for yourself, for it to work as a system of interaction between large groups, those who see wrongs done do need to speak up, lest the community rot from within when the aggressors see that they can act with impunity because the community is too PC to chastise them.

It's a fine line, and "be polite" doesn't cover the whole situation.  There are times when politeness is an excellent choice.  There are other times when the only appropriate response is to lambaste someone thoroughly.

I would suggest that "use common sense and discretion when deciding who (about and in front of), when, and where to express extreme displeasure" would be better advice.

Joe

[Lloyd Danforth]

I knew I  wasn't gonna get laid when I saw the author.