The Georgists

[hankster]

Nowhere have you explained how you plan to get people to pay taxes without forcing them.

the same way landlords get it from their tenants...

Through force.? Now I understand...

All taxes are based on force.
All governments are based on force.

Without government, land ownership is based on force (you have to defend your claim).
With government, land ownership is based on force (the government is essentially "contracted" to defend your claim).
Land ownership is based on force. The question is: "what are the rules under which that force may be applied?"

If you are going to have government, that government needs money which it must get by force. The question becomes "what are the rules under which that force may be applied?"

I think it is more appropriate to say there are no examples in the natural world of dominion over a territory under scarcity conditions being established without force.

plants "crowd out" others
animals encroach on others territory

the question as it relates to taxes is whether or not the force is JUSTIFIED.

in the case of economic rent - it NATURALLY attaches to all locations under scarcity conditions - it is a given.

the only question we have to analyze is "who should pay?"

if the excluded pay (involuntarily forced by the state) it can ONLY come at the expense of their ABSOLUTE property right to labor.

but the same can not be said for the excluder (landowner).

1. they don't produce the land via labor
2. they don't create the economic rent (unimproved land value) via their labor, their neighbors' (excluded) create it via their labor.
3. in a pure rent sharing scenario, there would be NO purchase price to land - only sharing the economic rent equally and directly with your neighbor whose labor created it (and they share with you)

where exactly is the landowner's absolute property rights to labor being violated.

we have to make a mutually exclusive choice...

you can either have:

1. absolute property rights in land (law-based)

or

2. absolute property rights in labor

BUT you can't have both!

#1 creates servitude because it makes the rights to the fruits of labor conditional.
#2 creates a society with the greatest amount of EQUAL freedom for the greatest number of people

today we have conditional property rights to law-based property (the return on land being economic rent) and labor-based property (the return on labor being wages)

libertarians on the right want absolute property rights in land AND labor which is LOGICALLY impossible

geo-libertarians as Lockeans want absolute property rights to labor and conditional property rights to land (Locke's Proviso) which is the original classical liberal position of the French (laissez-faire) Physiocrats.

[Lex]

if the excluded pay (involuntarily forced by the state) it can ONLY come at the expense of their ABSOLUTE property right to labor.

Get rid of the state and the problem is solved.

[hankster]

if the excluded pay (involuntarily forced by the state) it can ONLY come at the expense of their ABSOLUTE property right to labor.

Get rid of the state and the problem is solved.

it will not because the economic rent itself is not contigent on the state being present.

the state is just deciding who is to receive the economic rent.

the economic rent is naturally occuring as two or more people compete for access under scarce conditions.

today the state is on the side of the excluders violating the property rights to labor of the excluded.

I want the state to be on the side of the excluded to uphold labor based property right to insure equal freedom for ALL and simple justice.

[Lex]

the state is just deciding who is to receive the economic rent.

I think you are in the wrong forum, try revolutionaryleft.com they are more interested in wealth redistribution.

[hankster]

the state is just deciding who is to receive the economic rent.

I think you are in the wrong forum, try revolutionaryleft.com they are more interested in wealth redistribution.

in a stateless society the landowner will just hire a group to perform the task of the state to deliver the economic rent to the landowner.

either way it is a violation of the excluded's absolute property righst to their labor.

[Lex]

the state is just deciding who is to receive the economic rent.

I think you are in the wrong forum, try revolutionaryleft.com they are more interested in wealth redistribution.

in a stateless society the landowner will just hire a group to perform the task of the state to deliver the economic rent to the landowner.

either way it is a violation of the excluded's absolute property righst to their labor.

Your system of slavery is a violation of my freedom. What entitles you to force me to pay your taxes for the rest of my life?

[hankster]

the state is just deciding who is to receive the economic rent.

I think you are in the wrong forum, try revolutionaryleft.com they are more interested in wealth redistribution.

in a stateless society the landowner will just hire a group to perform the task of the state to deliver the economic rent to the landowner.

either way it is a violation of the excluded's absolute property righst to their labor.

Your system of slavery is a violation of my freedom. What entitles you to force me to pay your taxes for the rest of my life?

the landowner's absolute rights to their labor-based property is not violated if they are forced to share the economic rent with their neighbors because there is no labor inputs to land by them.

- they don't produce the land via labor
- they don't create the economic rent via labor (their neighbors do)
- they don't purchase the land in my system just equal sharing with neighbors

but if? instead the state (or hired protection agency in a stateless society) forces the excluded to pay the economic rent to the landowner then we DO have slavery because the land owner is providing no GOOD OR SERVICE (requiring labor inputs) in exchange for forcing the excluded to pay.

the system you advocate is for slavery

I advocate for a just society based on equal freedom.

logic dictates that you have to choose between absolute property rights in land OR absolute property rigts in labor - you can't have both..they are mutually exclusive.

[Lex]

but if  instead the state (or hired protection agency in a stateless society) forces the excluded to pay the economic rent to the landowner then we DO have slavery because the land owner is providing no GOOD OR SERVICE (requiring labor inputs) in exchange for forcing the excluded to pay.

These people are not slaves because they have the option to purchase their own land. While in your system EVERYONE is a slave.

[hankster]

but if? instead the state (or hired protection agency in a stateless society) forces the excluded to pay the economic rent to the landowner then we DO have slavery because the land owner is providing no GOOD OR SERVICE (requiring labor inputs) in exchange for forcing the excluded to pay.

These people are not slaves because they have the option to purchase their own land. While in your system EVERYONE is a slave.

the land they purchase is simply capitalized economic rent...you can't get away from the fact that one of two parties MUST pay the economic rent.

either...

the excluders

or

the excluded

your system (the excluded pay) leads to slavery mine (the excluders) leads to equal freedom

[Lex]

but if  instead the state (or hired protection agency in a stateless society) forces the excluded to pay the economic rent to the landowner then we DO have slavery because the land owner is providing no GOOD OR SERVICE (requiring labor inputs) in exchange for forcing the excluded to pay.

These people are not slaves because they have the option to purchase their own land. While in your system EVERYONE is a slave.

the land they purchase is simply capitalized economic rent...

Capitalized economic rent sounds a lot better to me than infinitely prepetual economic rent. One allows you to work for a limited amount of time to achieve your goal of owning private land while the other requires you to give up your entire life at which point if you miss your rent you lose your property.

[hankster]

but if? instead the state (or hired protection agency in a stateless society) forces the excluded to pay the economic rent to the landowner then we DO have slavery because the land owner is providing no GOOD OR SERVICE (requiring labor inputs) in exchange for forcing the excluded to pay.

These people are not slaves because they have the option to purchase their own land. While in your system EVERYONE is a slave.

the land they purchase is simply capitalized economic rent...

Capitalized economic rent sounds a lot better to me than infinitely prepetual economic rent. One allows you to work for a limited amount of time to achieve your goal of owning private land while the other requires you to give up your entire life at which point if you miss your rent you lose your property.

you miss your mortgage payment you lose your land...
you miss your lease payment you lose your land...

capitalized economic rent is a tax on your labor violating your property rights.

your so-called "freedom" can only come at the expense of another's property rights to the fruits of their labor.

my system of direct and qual economic rent sharing provides the greatest amount of equal freedom for the greatest number of people

[Lex]

you miss your mortgage payment you lose your land...

Okay, so here is how a mortgage works.

If you do not have the funds to purchase land and you do not want to wait to earn those funds you can borrow the specific amount from someone else and purchase the land. Then repay them while you live on this land, after you finish paying off the amount you borrowed plus interest you make no more payments.

In your system, you pay FOREVER!

[hankster]

you miss your mortgage payment you lose your land...

Okay, so here is how a mortgage works.

If you do not have the funds to purchase land and you do not want to wait to earn those funds you can borrow the specific amount from someone else and purchase the land. Then repay them while you live on this land, after you finish paying off the amount you borrowed plus interest you make no more payments.

In your system, you pay FOREVER!

and your neighbors pay you FOREVER!

In your system, the excluded pay a TAX on their wages FOREVER!

[Lex]

you miss your mortgage payment you lose your land...

Okay, so here is how a mortgage works.

If you do not have the funds to purchase land and you do not want to wait to earn those funds you can borrow the specific amount from someone else and purchase the land. Then repay them while you live on this land, after you finish paying off the amount you borrowed plus interest you make no more payments.

In your system, you pay FOREVER!

and your neighbors pay you FOREVER!

In your system, the excluded pay a TAX on their wages FOREVER!

They are not forced to be excluded, they choose to be excluded, there is plenty of land to be purchased and if they choose to do so they can purchase this land and never have to owe anyone money again.

[hankster]

you miss your mortgage payment you lose your land...

Okay, so here is how a mortgage works.

If you do not have the funds to purchase land and you do not want to wait to earn those funds you can borrow the specific amount from someone else and purchase the land. Then repay them while you live on this land, after you finish paying off the amount you borrowed plus interest you make no more payments.

In your system, you pay FOREVER!

and your neighbors pay you FOREVER!

In your system, the excluded pay a TAX on their wages FOREVER!

They are not forced to be excluded, they choose to be excluded, there is plenty of land to be purchased and if they choose to do so they can purchase this land and never have to owe anyone money again.

the right of self-ownership and it's natural logical extension the right to the fruits of your labor means that you are born with it and it does not require that you have to purchase or be gifted the right...no?