kiddie diddling

[dalebert]

Dale, if you sexually assault someone that isn't something deemed bad, it is bad.  There is clear harm being done to someone.

I agree and yet I feel you completely missed my point. I put quotes because I am talking about them in the context of labels that people use, and those labels serve a self-centered purpose. The point is that people are less out to prevent these sorts of crimes and protect children than they are about demonstrating that they are good people themselves because they really really hate the bad people. (Avoiding the quotes this time because they are getting misinterpreted)

I probably should have said "evil", because the point seems to be to make the label as loaded as possible in order to justify a vengeance and punishment approach instead of a problem-solving approach. Vengeance is very short-sighted, animalistic, emotional. It may give a brief sense of satisfaction but it just hurts more people (like the innocent loved ones of whomever it's enacted upon) while not helping anyone or anything, and it propogates violence instead of reducing it. Therefore it's not rational.

[dalebert]

Yet here it sees some are taking the "liberal" view that criminals should be rehabilitated, maybe I'm reading too far into some of the posts.

I think that's how you might label it if you were looking at it from a more conservative viewpoint, albeit libertarian-leaning conservative, but still within the framework of the left/right false dichotomy. Believing in restitution and prevention vs. punishment is very anti-violence and libertarian. And yes, sometimes that prevention may require something as drastic as locking someone away, but if it's really motivated by prevention, and if possible, rehabilitation rather than by vengeance and punishment, it would be done a lot more humanely than the prisons we have today which aren't fit for human beings.

Prisons aren't libertarian in general. Think about it. We ought to at least be highly concerned with exercising discretion in the act of putting human beings into cages and be very concious of how we do it when we do need to.

[lildog]

We ought to at least be highly concerned with exercising discretion in the act of putting human beings into cages and be very concious of how we do it when we do need to.

Dale you raise some very good points but there's a question to ask before you get to the how.  The question you first need to ask is why do we need cages?

If the answer is anything else other then because they caused harm to others or are dangerous to others then we should be asking whether or not locking them up is the correct thing to do but if a person causes harm to others then I would agree with you the question is how is the best question to ask.  But we have a problem in this country that we are far to quick to send people into a cage for reasons we shouldn't.

[KBCraig]

We ought to at least be highly concerned with exercising discretion in the act of putting human beings into cages and be very concious of how we do it when we do need to.

Dale you raise some very good points but there's a question to ask before you get to the how.  The question you first need to ask is why do we need cages?

If the answer is anything else other then because they caused harm to others or are dangerous to others then we should be asking whether or not locking them up is the correct thing to do but if a person causes harm to others then I would agree with you the question is how is the best question to ask.  But we have a problem in this country that we are far to quick to send people into a cage for reasons we shouldn't.

Speaking of that, here's a post I made on FreeKeene, in Brad Jardis' thread:

http://forum.freekeene.com/index.php?topic=1786.msg24253#msg24253

So, yeah: why do we need cages?

[BillKauffman]

People actually do feel a sense of shame when their personal boundaries have been violated because they feel incredibly vulnerable as the result.
[...]

I think that if/when there are feelings of shame, those feelings are the legitimate result of guilt. HOWEVER, the only usual reason one feels guilt after being violated comes as the result of the HATRED which may develop, particularly (as I mentioned in the other thread) after the authority figures in the child's life teach them HATRED and REVENGE.

There can also be MISPLACED feelings of guilt and shame if/when the VICTIM is made to feel dirty IF they found some pleasure.

Sometimes the victim will have feelings of guilt and shame associated with the ill will they feel towards the people who are putting ideas of HATRED and REVENGE into their heads. These feelings of ill will can be particularly confusing as they are directed toward the very people who claim to be helping them.

So, (I believe) that the very people who tell the child that their "innocents has been stolen" are (generally) the very people stealing it - by the teaching HATRED and REVENGE.

Hatred is like a loaded gun - pointing back at the victim. Hatred is much more likely to ruin the life of a victim than any original crime.

From hatred comes feelings of guilt; from guilt comes the shame.

Feelings of guilt are the result of believing one has done something wrong.
Feelings of shame are the result of believing one IS wrong.

Anger is directed first inward at allowing oneself to be violated. The result is a person who grows up with overly rigid boundaries about not wanting to be "controlled" by others.

[John]

Feelings of guilt are the result of believing one has done something wrong.
Feelings of shame are the result of believing one IS wrong.

Anger is directed first inward at allowing oneself to be violated. The result is a person who grows up with overly rigid boundaries about not wanting to be "controlled" by others.

Interesting observations.

I believe that anger can be directed inwardly. How long that lasts can be effected by the input/support which the victim gets from others.
That is exactly where adults (and the victim's pairs) can and should direct there attention.

Children should be taught (early and often) that people who violate the rights of others - not their victims - are guilty and should feel ashamed.
It helps if the child is taught these things in advance of ever becoming a victim.

[dalebert]

http://www.cracked.com/article/195_7-things-good-parents-do-that-screw-kids-up-life/

Jump to #3 if you don't feel like reading the whole thing.

[BillKauffman]

Children should be taught (early and often) that people who violate the rights of others - not their victims - are guilty and should feel ashamed.
It helps if the child is taught these things in advance of ever becoming a victim.

Typically this is taught by a parent.

But if the parent was raised in a shame-based environment they will repeat the same issue with the child about boundary problems.

[microtone]

I don't have any answer or opinion on the sexuality perspective. It can get too politically charged, for instance, if you point that the majority of prostitution arrests are male hustlers. It's not what 'good folk' see on TV or read in the 'newspapers'....

Perhaps, 2,500 or the 10,000 New Hampshire prison inmates are in there for child rape. Offhand, I would say that alcohol abuse was a factor in 100% of the cases.

Personally, of the number of survivors that I have come in contact, most of them are male. Neither the perps or the enablers were ever caught or punished by our benevolent state. They truly are children of the secret.

Of the few female survivors I have talked to: frankly, they are eclipsed and victimized a second time by the enablers, who feign victim-hood and blame the victim.

It's not pretty.