Objectivist Bomb Laden

[TackleTheWorld]

Mike thought of a objection to objectivism I hadn't heard before:
"Thus, if someone strapped a bomb to a Randroid, watched his every move, and gave him instructions, he could do literally anything he's told without it being an immoral act."

If I were the unfortunate Randroid, I'd end up killing myself not because I think other lives are more important than my own, but because I couldn't bear to see unending death and destruction happen in front of me.

And yes, I would not be committing an immoral act because the essence of morality is choice.

What do you think is the essence of morality?

[Michael Fisher]

What do you think is the essence of morality?

I think one's morality is a definition of rules for interaction with the outside world.  Thus, matters not concerning the outside world are amoral.

I'm guided by objective morality and subjective morality:
1.  ZAP is the essence of my objective morality.  This is my absolute minimum standard of moral judgement, and no other morality overrides it.
2.  Treating others how I would honestly like to be treated is the essence of my subjective morality.
3.  Voluntary self-sacrifice can be an extremely morally righteous action in certain circumstances as a natural extension of my subjective morality.

What about you?

[Russell Kanning]

What do you think is the essence of morality?

Love others as much as myself.

Why would it be ok for an objectivist to kill other people?

[AlanM]

What do you think is the essence of morality?

Love others as much as myself.

Why would it be ok for an objectivist to kill other people?

Only in self defense.

[KBCraig]

What do you think is the essence of morality?

Love others as much as myself.

Why would it be ok for an objectivist to kill other people?

To love others as yourself, you must first love yourself. Systems that stress altruism focus on loving others first often result in frustration, lack of fulfillment, and despising the self.

Lauren's bomb example is a way of showing who is responsible for certain acts. In this case, all responsibility for any death lies with the person controlling the bomb. A frequently used example supposes someone holding a gun to your head and ordering you to do something; if you comply, the responsibility is not yours. The blame and responsibility lie with the person who would take your life.

Kevin

[Michael Fisher]

What do you think is the essence of morality?

Love others as much as myself.

Why would it be ok for an objectivist to kill other people?

To love others as yourself, you must first love yourself. Systems that stress altruism focus on loving others first often result in frustration, lack of fulfillment, and despising the self.

Lauren's bomb example is a way of showing who is responsible for certain acts. In this case, all responsibility for any death lies with the person controlling the bomb. A frequently used example supposes someone holding a gun to your head and ordering you to do something; if you comply, the responsibility is not yours. The blame and responsibility lie with the person who would take your life.

Kevin

My bomb-laden Randroid parable is meant to illustrate that free will is absolute and one is always responsible for one's actions, even when faced with the threat of death.

Free will only ceases to exist when you die or completely lose motor control of your body.  Otherwise, free will, and thus moral responsibility, is absolute.

[Michael Fisher]

In this scenario, I would not kill myself.  I would only refuse to follow any commands that would violate my moral principles, even if that meant my death.

I would sacrifice my life, if necessary, in order to assert my free will to follow ZAP and because I would want someone would do the same thing for me.

[Michael Fisher]

Hitler's ultimate evil was his perversely shrewd policy of "blood cement." Hitler and his henchmen forced people to kill, not just to do away with their enemies. Hitler's perverse achievement was to eliminate the moral opposition to killing in the minds of the SS and their captives, who would normally object. Once people committed the ultimate crime, they couldn't object to others committing it. People participated in the destruction of their own moral sense.

http://www.ijn.com/archive/2002%20arch/053102.htm

[Michael Fisher]

Maybe we could find a way for people to participate in the creation of their own moral compass.

hmmmm...

[AlanM]

If someone strapped a bomb to me, I would assume I was dead meat. I would hold onto the perptrator with all I had. If I was going to die, he would come with me.

[Russell Kanning]

Totally agree with you Alan and Mike .... this example isn't far from our current reality. Do we go along with government to save our butt? If they are doing wrong things ... you can't go along. Do you kill 10 people so that you can go home to your wife and kids? Tolstoy did a great job reasoning this out.

I didn't think an objectivist would kill an innocent person.

[KBCraig]

Lauren's bomb example  . . .

My bomb-laden Randroid parable . . .

I apologize for the inaccurate reference. Things get busy and hectic here at times.

Kevin

[TackleTheWorld]

The root of ethics is my most favorite objectivist subject.  This is fun.

I think one's morality is a definition of rules for interaction with the outside world.?

So morality turns out to be a set of rules, but what's the incentive to create such rules?  Why bother?

[TackleTheWorld]

If someone strapped a bomb to me, I would assume I was dead meat. I would hold onto the perptrator with all I had. If I was going to die, he would come with me.

Yeah, that's a good answer...

Oh, I know!

What if he blasted you with a firehose from 20 yards.  But the firehose shot warm plastic explosives that hardened as it cooled.  And he ran away, and your explosive coating was so heavy that you couldn't chase him?  Huh? What then?  What would you do then?

[AlanM]

If someone strapped a bomb to me, I would assume I was dead meat. I would hold onto the perptrator with all I had. If I was going to die, he would come with me.

Yeah, that's a good answer...

Oh, I know!

What if he blasted you with a firehose from 20 yards.? But the firehose shot warm plastic explosives that hardened as it cooled.? And he ran away, and your explosive coating was so heavy that you couldn't chase him?? Huh? What then?? What would you do then?

Bend over and kiss my ass good-bye.  If I could still bend over.