Driving w/o a license

[Russell Kanning]

others call it "Life"

maybe for your first time in jail you could go all Thoreau on them
then later graduate to the full elkingrey treatment

[Free libertarian]

 Sometimes I enjoy a little self defecating humor, butt this is just too much! 

[Tom Sawyer]

One of the effects of CD is that it plays on the conscience of your captors...

Russell, Lauren, Kat etc.  carried themselves with a quiet dignity that exposed the jailers as tormentors...

I think it is a mistake to try to "overpower" your captors... that is the game they are best prepared to deal with.

I think it was Firecracker Joe that told us of the Valley Street Jail tying "unruly" prisoners into a restraint chair and leaving them to soil themselves and suffer the physical and emotional effects.

[Ogre]

I'm all for total non-cooperation, but personally I don't think peeing on yourself will bother the captors one little bit. Instead, it might provide them with some entertainment value more than anything.

I just think being totally non-cooperative -- no speaking, no moving where and when they tell you, and no eating -- would be more effective. And heck, once you stop eating, you won't have much of a need to soil yourself.

What I'm most curious about (and may find out one day) is to what point they will allow you to do so. For example, if you stop drinking water, you're not going to last long in the jail. After a few days, if you can resist the water, you will pass out. I guess at that point, they'll either ignore you and let you die (facing a dreaded "verbal reprimand" if they do), or they'll take you to a doctor who will use force to put water and nutrients in you.

[Russell Kanning]

i would guess they would use the restraint thingie on you to get you dressed in their clothes ... they have threatened that with me
the jailers would feel pretty good about treating you badly if you did certain things
in the cheshire county jail some other guys in east block where throwing poop (and not in a comic way like Dale's character) out into the hall .... i told the guys that it mostly punished us, since the cops only smelled it for a bit, while we had to put up with it all day long.
i have not done as much non-cooperating as some of my friends .... if you just followed their example, you will effect the entire jail
i have even taken to walking where they want me to ... it seems to help the communication. But I could see only doing things that you want, like only walking towards the exits and such.

[Kat Kanning]

Russell, Lauren, Kat etc.  carried themselves with a quiet dignity that exposed the jailers as tormentors...

You didn't see my first arrest 

[Tom Sawyer]

 

I must have showed up right after ya'll were hauled off... me walking around... gee, where is everybody.

In your case I was more thinking about you standing in the Fed Court pointing around the room and telling them the awful things their gang does... That was a very powerful moment... they knew you were right... I wish I had the transcript. 

[Jim Johnson]

I must have showed up right after ya'll were hauled off... me walking around... gee, where is everybody.

In your case I was more thinking about you standing in the Fed Court pointing around the room and telling them the awful things their gang does... That was a very powerful moment... they knew you were right... I wish I had the transcript. 

Yes, that was a great stained glass window moment, the "Shaming of the Court".   

[David]

I'm surprised more people on this forum don't find this tactic perfectly rational. It seems to me to be the logical conclusion of complete non-cooperation. In fact, I thought it was a free stater who did this sort of thing that gave me the idea. Perhaps it was someone else.

It is logical, just difficult. 
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That being said, if one refuses to do absolutely anything once arrested, it shows the captors that the state no longer has coercive power to achieve obedience, for that individual is prepared to die and cannot be bribed into compliance. It is only our fear of the state that ever gets us to comply with any of their mandates.

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that if one is not prepared to die for freedom then surely one is not prepared to live for freedom either.
[/quote]
I disagree.  Freedom is nothing but an intellectual concept/arguement if you are dead.  It does help those that are still alive, but I guess I am a smidge selfish, I want freedom while I am still alive.  I will not be martyring myself.  However, all movements, including the big ones in the past, are the mountain peaks that rely on a huge base of individual actions.  That is both good and bad movements.  Individuals must be willing to not cooperate, before any progress will be made on a substantial level.  I don't get to philosophical about my opposition to politics, but rather my opposition to it is that as long as we ask permission, we will always have to ask permission.  I want to strike at the root, and refuse.  I don't have to threaten anyone, yell, scream, or even get angry, (the last one is hard to do), I just have to not cooperate.  They will try to 'sanction' me, by hurting me, imprisoning me, or just try to cause pain, unfortunately that cannot be avoided. 
[/quote]
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Each individual must answer to themselves how far they are prepared to take it. I look at myself and cannot help but to think about how wonderful of a life I've already lived and the fact that I look forward to the day I meet my maker. Plus I think about the millions of people who have died fighting for freedom. Often times we libertarians exclaim "liberty or death!" But what many of them are guilty of, myself included, is that we are really exclaiming "liberty or death, but dear God don't put me in jail!"

I see people fed up with the system today flying planes into buildings and shooting random police officers. Yet these people have never considered civil disobedience as a viable option. I think we owe it to ourselves to at least attempt to live free and take some jail time over indiscriminate killing.
[/quote]

Yup.  People console their anxieties by telling themselves that death is painless.  Successful civ dis requires one to control your anger, or like a poison the anger eats you up inside.  It destroys you, and makes you an ugly person.  For example, Ed Brown threatened the families of fed marshals.  The spouse and children of a cop or fed cop, is not in anyway harming you, and should never be the target of aggression, no matter how you read the Non Aggression Principle. 
[/quote]

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I'm knew to the concept/tactic of civil disobedience. This is largely the reason why I am attracted to New Hampshire. I see a lot of people not afraid to go to the slammer and the fact that the movement capitalizes on each person who does, getting the most bang for their buck. Here in California, if I get arrested tomorrow, it won't make a wave unless I take a large ad out in the newspaper, which I am considering doing.

There was even a civil dis class offered recently I think in New Hampshire. I would like to have attended that. I like the idea of more people getting together and spending time learning how to be effective at civil dis instead of how to appeal to the state legislature.

Clearly I am a noob at non-violent non-cooperation. I am sure I will learn through trial and error. I'm currently reading Gandhi's book on Satyagraha(non-violent resistance). It seems he made plenty of errors along the way too. Still, it seems like many of us in the liberty movement are having to reinvent the wheel. I like to be as systematic as possible. I view this whole battle for freedom like the greatest game I've ever played. It's like playing Chess, Axis & Allies, Stratego, and Poker all in one.
[/quote]

If you are concerned about your insurance rates, credit rating, criminal record, gaps in your resume, or maintaining your car's resale value, I would recommend driving with a license.  If you are concerned about making things easier for unserialized people now and in the future when the police state really cracks down, I would recommend driving without a license.

I knew this, but sometimes lose sight of it.  Keeping it sweet, simple.  KISS  Good answer.   

[David]

I would discourage the 'tactic' of not going to the bathroom.    
Noncompiance combined with a clear moral stance, is the simplest for both the activist, and the law enforcers. 
I do this in the courtroom, and when I was in jail for refusing to pay a 300 dollar fine. 

Strategically somethings are more effective than others.  While it is common for many to strategise to the point that no actual activism gets done, it is wise in my opinion, to have a focus.  It should not be some grand master plan.  Just something near and dear to your heart and values.  The gun cleaners talk, (and talk, and talk, and sometimes mix in a few threats, just so everyone knows just how serious they are) about their "line in the sand". 
To many outsiders looking in, the activism here looks very disorganized, because it is a bunch of individuals challenging the enforcers when the enforcers cross their personal line in the sand.  So one activist will do one thing here, and another activist will do one thing there.  The focus of the rest of the activists is primarily support, both physical and moral, but also, the focus is on the general idea of non aggression.  By focusing on the ideas, rather than the individuals, we remain leaderless, but stronger because they can try to arrest or intimidate with threats of arrest perceived leaders, but it is not very effective. 

[elkingrey]

Gandhi observes that all revolutions in history are born out of suffering and that there is no reason to believe that Indian independence should be an exception. I believe ours too, will be no exception.

On a personal note, I think being too afraid to die that it hampers activity is silly. Death is nothing more than the great unknown. I can understand how those who have no faith in God would not be able to take consolation in death for any cause. Perhaps that is why our country was able to achieve both a revolution and freedom, because our founders were devote in their faith.

I'm not religious. But I do have faith in God. And I do have faith in freedom. People that lose their fear of death can achieve great things. I suspect more people will lose their fear of death when they realize the alternative is a life in bondage.

[Russell Kanning]

i agree

[elkingrey]

Old thread revival time!

It's been a long time since I've visited this forum. Since I first created this topic my license has, in fact, expired. I've been driving without permission for over three years now. I've also been living in New Hampshire for 2.5 years.

I've yet to be pulled over, thank God. I obey all of the speed limits, usually driving 5 MPH below the speed limit. I come to complete stops. I always use my blinkers, etc.

I've thought a lot about how I would react if I ever get pulled over. I guess the answer though is that you never really know until/unless it happens. I think my most likely reaction would be to sign the piece of paper for a court date, have a friend come and get the car so that it doesn't get towed if possible. Then I'd show up to the court date, plead not guilty, go back for another court date, lose the case, not pay the fine, instead opting for community service or jail time.

The idea for me behind not getting the license has mostly to do with not funding the state, so paying fines would defeat the purpose. I would have to take solace knowing that the court + possible jail time is costing the state more than what they'd be getting from me.

Also, I think that yes, if in jail I would eat and use the restroom etc. The soiling myself and not eating idea was intriguing, but not something I'm sure would do any real good. Better to choose my battles wisely.

[Free libertarian]

If you don't eat, the soiling yourself thing will eventually have diminishing returns.  Just saying.   

[MaineShark]

The idea for me behind not getting the license has mostly to do with not funding the state, so paying fines would defeat the purpose. I would have to take solace knowing that the court + possible jail time is costing the state more than what they'd be getting from me.

...

Better to choose my battles wisely.

Unless you brew your own fuel, they get plenty from you in fuel taxes.

I would say that the extra $10/year they get for a license doesn't really have much impact, compared to that, so in my mind that falls under choosing battles wisely.

As you noted, you...

...obey all of the speed limits, usually driving 5 MPH below the speed limit. I come to complete stops.

In my mind, the cost of doing all that (how many hours of my life would I waste, blindly obeying every sign some government decided to post?) is a far greater cost than the $10/year that a driver's license imposes.  Add in the inconvenience you cause for every driver who is stuck behind you when you may be driving 15 mph below what they wish to drive, and it's a large imposition on the world around you.  Given that the government does exist, and will violate our rights, the best we can do right now is to minimize that, while working to end it.  I'll opt for a small violation ($10/year, and a few minutes spent in a line) versus an violation that compounds every mile that I drive, eventually reaching tremendous proportions.  I'd far rather be able to drive in a safe, sane, and reasonable manner which does not require constant over-obedience to every traffic law, than be able to keep $10 extra each year.

Your choices may, of course, vary.  But given the limited list of options, I find that the least-offensive option.  The time and energy I save can be put to good use working to bring about the day where all of this is just a bad patch in the history books.