Seth on Anarchists

[dalebert]

If you'd like to focus your efforts on something more real and sinster, how about berating the folks who tried to pass off photocopies of lunch vouchers, attempting to scam the organizers and get a free lunch?  We don't know it was, but most likely was someone who wasn't buying a ticket to the forum, and attending only the free sessions of the Alt-Expo, ie the more anarchist side of the spectrum of guest.  yet, when I asked the 'leaders' of that movement, Jack and the folks at the Left-Libertarian info table to take leadership (ie if you are going to host and/educate folks, you inherit the mantle of responsiblity), and condemn the action, and let their people know such actions _are_ fraud, they refused to do so.  They got huffy and tried to push it on me, denying they had any responsiblity at all, and no desire to help prevent such problems in the future.  So much for principles and responsiblity among Anarchists.

And George Donnelly and others can feel free to boycott the NHLF in the future, as he twittered about repeatedly, if the net result is that less freeloading anarchists who believe that fraud is ok against the FSP attend. 

Self-Responsible Anarchists, who know fraud is wrong, who recognize that plenty of pro-anarchy sessions did occur this year, in fact more than last year. including who truly help to make this the premier event it is, instead of coattailriding and freeloading, are of course quite welcome

UPDATE: The quote doesn't link correctly. You can experience the full range of Seth's bigotry HERE.

[Puke]

Fuck you Seth. And fuck any other asshole that just has to group everyone into nice tight little genres of political or apolitical belief.

I'm an "anarchist" (His term, not mine.) that didn't buy any NHLF tickets this year, nor did I do any AltExpo stuff. I hung out with friends. I have purchased full NHLF packages for 3 years in a row prior to this one. I didn't, nor do I know of anyone that made fake lunch tickets.

Here are some fuck-tard points.
1. Jack Shimek/LeftLib People are not responsible for anyone but himself.
2. Jack (and whoever) not chiding everyone doesn't condone nor condemn shit.
3. Did Seth go and bitch to anyone else? Or did he only assume that it was the "anarchists"? Does he have any evidence as to who did this?
4. Example: Ryan Marvin. He was a thief and a shit-bag. He also was very political. Take that for what it's worth.
5. Maybe next year there should be individualized meal tickets to prevent fraud!

I have to go to work. If I can think of more shit I'll post it later.
And fuck any other asshole that just has to group everyone into nice tight little genres of political or apolitical belief. This was done by a person or persons. It doesn't appear that there was any evidence as to who did it or why. So how about some answers before anyone goes a blaming, eh?

[Puke]

One more thing about "free-loading".
I paid for the whole shebang last year. Even that Sununununu dinner. I ate my dinner and left before the fuckhead could speak. So here is at least one anarchist who actually paid more for a hotel meal when I could have eaten elsewhere.

[Puke]

I'd also like to point out that yet again it's a political type that has started all sorts of drama against the non-political types. 

[Russell Kanning]

wow
i am glad i wasn't in the room when puke read that post

[Tom Sawyer]

After shutting down the meal voucher counterfeiting operation The Secret Seven is proud to announce this years recipient of the Machiavellian Award...


Seth Cohen

[Lloyd Danforth]

I'm not sure what happened at the LF. If Seth or anyone else accused anyone or a member of any group of theft without proof they should be delt with more than just posts on a forum.

[AntonLee]

I hope he has some proof of this counterfeiting.  If a member of the community did so, I would not do business with those people.  If he is making something up, or is spreading a rumor, I'm sure Seth would be fine with me not doing business with him.  Either way, this is quite an accusation, one that should never be pointed at an entire group without some sort of proof of the entire group doing so.

I would hope that proof would come out soon.  Some of the most generous people I've met in this movement have been individuals from the anarchist side of things.  I've also seen politcos (such as Seth donating the remainder of the meal at Concord Porcupine meetup to the NHFree Press), though less, in the same manner.

The a-political, political thing is getting old.  It's one thing to make clear cases on how each side doesn't work or how the other works better, but it's another thing altogether to start pointing at the entire group assuming they have all masterminded some meal ticket theft by counterfeit.

[Lloyd Danforth]

I'm guessing that the organizers get a lot of shit about Alt Expo's operating in the hotel. A bunch of people crashing in each room and taking showers and such, is not part of the hotel's business model.
I'm guessing the LF organizers aren't going to let you guys interfere with their yearly, expensive, winter party,down near Boston,  much longer.

[SethCohn]

Hmm, I wonder why Dale felt the need to post a single excerpt of mine, rather than the full facts, or even just a link to the thread on the FSP forum?  Smells fishy to me, and should to others too.
Me thinks he protests a little too much:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=20327

I'll repeat what I last said there and then I'm done with discussing this, as the other side resorts to name calling rather than discussion, and either passively or actively defends those who committed fraud and theft at LF, or worst, denies it happened and wants more 'proof' (questioning if it even happened? Paranoia.), despite the numerous LF organizers who confirmed the facts of the fraud(s).  I lost any respect for certain people: George, Bile, Dale, and especially Jack.  I also discovered another reason I do respect and admire Russell so much: he 'gets it.'  We might disagree on methods and tactics and so on, but he's one of the first to step up and offer to help.

My final post on this topic, I'm done:

1) It's clear that some people 'get it' and some don't.  The ones that don't continue to call for 'proof', wonder why they are being singled out (George, I'll shun Bile too since he's clearly ok with some fraud/theft too, pardon me for not voicing that quickly or obviously enough for you to not feel alone in Coventry), and/or talk about my approach and tone rather than my content and concerns.  The ones that do get it, regardless of political/apolitical views, know that Fraud + Theft is wrong, and don't argue about the details, they want to help solve the problem itself, not complain about the messenger.  Those who merely make excuses continue to do so, and the excuses get bigger and broader, and point the finger more and more at others: LF organizers, the hotel, other guests, etc etc.  Anywhere but them, the folks I approached for help in solving the problem.

2) I can and do choose whom I associate with and support.  In fact, I got a very nice facebook msg from someone who'd I'd made clear in the past that I wanted nothing to do with, who had respected that boundary I set up, who was touched by the fact that I'd quickly asked about his health (with concern) this weekend when I saw him ill, and offered help and assistance.  He didn't expect that.  In my view, someone being ill takes precedence over other issues like shunning someone, ie human caring first and foremost.  But hey, that's my morality and ethics.  Sadly, not everyone seems to have either.

3) I have never really cared what folks thought of me on the forums.  My reputation is quite intact.  But my integrity is too, and I know I'm on the right side on this issue, and have voiced my opinion openly and honestly.  Those others who have educational/net/community bully pulpits and refuse to use them to condemn such actions, well, they have the moral failures, not me.  Those who don't 'get it' and defend fraud/theft are their own problem, I want nothing to do with them, and if I annoy them, in my speaking the truth, to the point where they refuse to have dealings with me, so much the better for me.  If someone wants to fool themselves into thinking I'm a bigot, in order to avoid having to hear my message, their loss, not mine.  I know the reality.

Back to productive things, of which I have many...

[Lloyd Danforth]

Seth. Do you have proof or not?

[dalebert]

Hmm, I wonder why Dale felt the need to post a single excerpt of mine, rather than the full facts, or even just a link to the thread on the FSP forum?  Smells fishy to me, and should to others too.
Me thinks he protests a little too much:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=20327

Actually, Seth, the quote is linked to that forum thread and I was hoping they would follow it and read the rest of your spectacularly irrational comments and see what a bigot you are because you just kept digging yourself in deeper with each one. Your respect is worthless to me and not a loss.

As for name-calling--

There is a fallacious argument tactic known as the ad hominem which is used to dismiss a person's points by attacking the person, but the topic IS your behavior-- blatant smearing of an entire group of people. And yes, I called you a name which I think was perfectly accurate based on your behavior. Meanwhile, though narrowly avoiding actually calling names (the letter of "the law" on the FSP forum, so to speak), you accused us of advocating fraud and theft, of having no principles, etc. all absurd and completely unsubstantiated. Those things are far more insulting than just "asshole".

UPDATE: My mistake. I assumed it linked over to the other forum. I just tried it and apparently it doesn't automatically contain the URL for the FSP. I will try to correct that.

[porcupine kate]

Lloyd.
The hotel staff came to the organizers about people trying to pass off fake photo copied lunch tickets.   I have no idea who did it.

To every one else reading this thread.
The vast majority of people at the Crowne plaza were great regardless of what events they were attending.


I don't think the Alt Expo is problem at all. 
I think some (not most) people attending either FSP event think they are in a free Liberty zone and forget that they are in a private business that rents space to multiple groups of people. They are running a business that has rules of conduct in the contract for people doing business with them.  Luckily for us they go to the organizers of the event and not the police to straighten problems out. 

Being one of the organizers I understand all to well the frustrations of dealing with selfish mooches regardless of their views on liberty.  Every year we get some people who don't understand that both Porc Fest and Liberty Forum are all run by volunteers who want to make the events fun and inviting to a large audience.  We put in countless hours and work very hard to have the events come close to breaking even to keep the cost as low as possible.   We have to pay for everything for the event so people who attend speakers and try and mooch a meal hurt the FSP and the integrity of the movement.

Most of the people in the liberty movement from the brand new people who are just starting to get the concept that big government is bad to those who figured out that all government is bad and there is a better way get the concept that it starts with personal responsibility.   We are seeing that integrity and reliability do make a difference in our movement.  We also have a large group of people that have very different views on how they live their lives and what liberty means to them.    I think it is great that so many of us do get along. 

I'm getting tired of the few bad apples that pop up each year.   This is not an issue about anarchists this is about freeloaders showing up and being rude, mooching hypocrites.  Given enough time we find them and they wind up leaving the shire.  I just hate the damage they do and the work that has to be done to get them to pay up and leave. 

[Lloyd Danforth]

Thank You Kate

[thinkliberty]

If Seth expects Jack to be responsible for ALL anarchists behavior, then I expect to Seth to hold himself responsible for all actions of his "constitutional" government.

Seth owes money to everyone that has been arrested in NH for a victim-less crime.  He is also responsible for his government's theft via taxation. The constitution allows his government to claim authority by fraud to hurt  people. 

How is Seth going to repay all the people that his government has harmed? He is responsible for the actions of other people, just like Jack. 

He better not blame bad politicians or cops for the actions of his government. Jack tried passing the blame and that is not going to fly here!

Remember Seth:

make excuses continue to do so, and the excuses get bigger and broader, and point the finger more and more at others: LF organizers, the hotel, other guests, etc etc.  Anywhere but them,

BTW Seth is the responsible for Obama not vetoing the health care bill too. Seth's constitution should have stopped him, but Seth told him to sign the healthcare bill anyway. Just like Jack told those people to make fake lunch tickets.

Everything is ALL Seth's and Jack's fault! The people actually committing fraud wouldn't have done anything if it was not for Seth and Jack!

Now that we have our scapegoats to blame our problems on, we don't have to address any real issues. Yay!