Seth on Anarchists

[dalebert]

I hope you won't interpret any particular person's failure to publicly call Seth out as anarchist-bashing.

I absolutely did.  If you've read all of what Seth and I wrote and still don't empathize at all in terms of why I find his behavior so offensive, then we have a deep divide that will not likely be settled by further discussion.  I meditated on this in meeting today and I don't want to contribute further to this conflict.  I feel I've already let myself get dragged into this long past when there was any hope of some kind of reconciliation being achieved.  I should have realized some time back this wasn't going anywhere positive.  That's what I get for missing meeting two weeks in a row.

Seth is just one person and not worth a fuss, but this showed me sides of people I hadn't seen before, even if just by their silence.  I'm sure some feel the same toward me.  I want to be cordial and keep the peace and forgive, but I also feel a certain distance is necessary for comfort levels on both sides.

Tammy, maybe you'll inspire all kinds of new support and perhaps it's a small loss, but you've lost at least one long-time supporter of the NHLF.  I've bought a full pass every year since it started, even the first one when I ended up unable to attend and my pass truly was just a donation and I was glad for that at the time and have continued to be a fan of NHLF right up through this last one.  I'm still a supporter of the FSP and Porcfest, but I'm full-on Alt Expo from here on out when it comes to NHLF as long as certain people are involved.  To folks like Dreepa and some others whom I think are great leaders, activists, and uniters, who put so much good work into this, I'm so very sorry, but I can't in good conscience keep the same company as you right now.  It's a painful dilemma for me because I feel you deserve better.

This is my way of peacefully opposing behavior I find intolerable-- by pulling my support, most importantly moral and certainly financial when possible.

[jaqeboy]

Ah, a ripple in The Force, caused me to read this rather than sleep. My short answer to the below is that Seth is lying about several aspects of the below. His story has grown to new exaggerated claims since it started and was put to bed on the FSP forum the other day. Seth sometimes seems like a decent guy, but he's gone off his rocker here. I'll grab the other answer from the other thread and quote it here (after I read the rest of the pages) for clarity. Dale was right that the issue was Seth's behaviour. He rudely interrupted conversations in progress and insulted FSP members, Liberty Forum exhibitors and Liberty Forum speakers - he attempted to do serious damage to the FSP and drive away potential movers. For that attempted destruction, he was, in essence told that he may not do that here. We've worked too hard to build up the FSP and attract movers for him to destroy that. He owes the 6 people present during his accusatory tirade an apology.

If Seth expects Jack to be responsible for ALL anarchists behavior, blah blah blah

Except I didn't.  You completely ignored what I've said multiple times now is the point:
Jack hosted the event.  Jack hosted an _educational_ event.  Jack took on the responsibility for that task when he put on the event.  What responsibility?  To help educate his guests.  He's not responsible for their actions, and I never said he was.  But when I approached him and ask him to help openly condemn such behaviors because (odds are, demographically, which he denied immediately and vehemently) the person was one of his guests at some point that weekend, he refused to take that responsibility: to help educate and thus prevent future happenings like that.  What is sad is how _other_ 'anarchists' also deny that anything wrong was even done.  They have defended it, even worse.

I didn't ask him to police, I didn't ask him to track down the troublemaker, all I began asking was he help educate and condemn such actions, if was done by one of his guests.  He got upset that I felt it was done by one of his guests, and the conversation fell apart right there...

[jaqeboy]

I believe Charles said the guy eating from the buffet was a Ron Pauler. I thought that was funny because when Seth originally made his collectivist, prejudiced claim, I said "prove it wasn't a minarchist!" 

Charles Johnson was the one who posted that someone was eating off the buffet, asked to stop because they had no ticket, and continued to get food from the buffet....or something along those lines. ...

... It's also wrong to accuse a group of people of being the culprits without clear proof doesn't it? ...

[jaqeboy]

Now, we're getting somewhere:

...
I approached Jack, and the others with him, specifically Darian of ALL, whom I knew had spoken at Alt-Expo.  My intent was to ask them to help prevent future theft, by promoting good memes (ie education, not policing) since they had a pulpit and 'students' (by their own voluntary choice to educate others), and sadly, the conversation blew up into something else, partly because of how they reacted to my wordings and tone.

The 6 people present universally "reacted to your wording and tone" and called you on it. You made collective judgements, were prejudiced, invaded peoples' space with your agressive finger gestures, made demands, etc. That's what happened. All of them, excepting Brad (who probly doesn't read these forums), so stated on the FSP thread. What has been suggested by us at the time and by others on this thread is work on the "wording and tone" issue.

You're welcome to come back to the AltExpo, conditional on proof of graduation from charm school 

[jaqeboy]

OK, I won't post anymore on this (you can read more on the FSP forum, if you're so inclined), except to say:
Seth, I think you're a great guy and I respect your energy, enthusiasm and knowledge. I'm grateful for the free hosting that you've provided and, when my health and prosperity return, I intend to pay you back fair market value for those services provided, so that's in your bank.

There have been issues of inclusion, which is why the AltExpo arose in the first place. It's purpose is to make folks feel good about the FSP and feel included (that have been made to feel excluded otherwise). I could go into more detail on that, but won't here.

There is such a thing as aggression on other levels: intellectually, emotionally and spiritually that many libertarians should look into. A focus on the physical only leads to the imbalance that we're seeing in this case. There can be a peace between people when respect is accorded on all levels, but, conflict when there is a mixed message.

I only ask you to listen to the feedback you've gotten here, on the other forum, and in my private email to you from a few days ago, and consider taking a step back to contemplate. Like I said on the other forum if you want to destroy MY FSP, I won't let you... I'll take that personal responsibility.

[Friday]

I hope you won't interpret any particular person's failure to publicly call Seth out as anarchist-bashing.

I absolutely did.  If you've read all of what Seth and I wrote and still don't empathize at all in terms of why I find his behavior so offensive, then we have a deep divide that will not likely be settled by further discussion. 

Super.  Everyone please note that Dale and I now have a deep divide.  Add it to the list.  Thanks!

Fuck me for trying to make peace.

P.S. Did I mention I'm an anarchist?  Pretty sure I did... at length... on my blog, which is syndicated on Free State Blogs.

[AntonLee]

my ass crack is a divide.  A deep one.  But, like other divides it's not much to worry about because it's close enough to the other!   

[Lloyd Danforth]

I wouldn't be surprised if Deep Thinker appeared on your profile!
OK,I might.

[George Donnelly]

Let it be known that I'm posting a reward of up to 2 ozt silver total for information about the Great Ticket Forgery of 2010 that leads to the identification of whoever forged the Liberty Forum meal ticket Seth is so upset about. I believe this happened on Sat Mar 20 around lunchtime, please correct me if that's wrong. If anyone would like to add to the pot, I can keep a running tab.

I don't understand how it is that the staff of the hotel reported the ticket forgeries. The times I went to eat, my (valid) ticket was collected by a volunteer. How do you know it was a forgery? Was it on different paper?

As someone put to me privately (because like so many controversial threads, few want to draw fire so they agree privately, but know that to speak up only makes them targets.  I have never minded being the visible target.):

"I nearly died when George said it's ok that people ate without paying....he lost his side of the argument right there"

I said that:

- I didn't use my lunch meal ticket, so while it would be forgery for sure, the FSP would not actually lose anything and I didn't mind someone picking up my abandoned lunch property.

- A market failure appears to have occurred, since someone could have facilitated the transfer of tickets from those who had but didn't use to those who wanted to use but didn't have. I feel partially responsible for that failure.

- It's not a big deal money-wise, you're blowing it out of all proportion and in the process shooting yourself in the foot. All businesses have shrinkage. You don't see IHOP yelling at customers for eating too many pancakes.

- It is obviously wrong to use forged meal tickets. And everyone knows this. How boorish it would be to actually lecture people on this, people who almost certainly had not stolen anything.


I already clarified this for you, albeit less verbosely, on the FSP forum thread. Yet you continue to lie about me and in another forum now. Despite my admittedly many failures and flaws, morality and living in strict alignment with my strict principles are two of the core features of my character. Thus, your slander is particularly offensive and damaging. You've raised this to the level where I have to defend myself, in public, and probably on my blog and to my social network. You continue to shoot yourself in the foot.

[AntonLee]

so far he's the only one offering up a reward to find the culprit.  Money where mouth is. . . kudos.

[Russell Kanning]

sometimes you crack me up Dale
ok you always do
just this time I don't think you are  joking , but I am stilling kinda chuckling

[dalebert]

FWIW, I really shouldn't just say "by their silence" which is overly broad.  I can't blame people for just wanting to stay out of a tussle.  Rather several people, while avoiding Seth's overtly offensive language, either parroted some of Seth's straw-man diversionary tactics like "But isn't theft wrong?" or said they didn't see anything wrong with Seth's behavior.  Sadly, that does include you, Friday.  I guess that earns you special status as one of those rare exceptions amongst anarchists that Seth sees as having principles.

[Tom Sawyer]

This has got me to understand how folks can be unhappy about being referred to as "You people."

I'm also a little jealous... Dale has Friday for his deep divide... Who do I get? Llllloyd or Seth?      

[jaqeboy]

Maybe you people can compare deep divides, like Anton's. This might be a tough contest - maybe a new event for PorcFest!

Oh, btw, I credited Dale (you look so much alike), when I should have credited you (tom sawyer) for the remarks about divisions being created and how the AltExpo is one of those "divided off" enterprises. I'm anxious to see more uniting and less dividing, though it's perfectly cool that peeps are creating what they want and need.

I'll add $10 FRN to the pot for the reward for information leading to the full investigation of the meal ticket forgery. If we don't even get enough, then I agree to let the funds be kicked in to the FSP to pay the hotel lunch bill loss due to the forgery. Also, if you know of anyone that forged AltExpo buttons or who was a minarchist and snuck into the AltExpo suite, please call our anarcho-crime hotline: 1-800-RAT-em-OUT begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              1-800-RAT-em-OUT      end_of_the_skype_highlighting. Thank you for your support.

This has got me to understand how folks can be unhappy about being referred to as "You people."

I'm also a little jealous... Dale has Friday for his deep divide... Who do I get? Llllloyd or Seth?      

[AntonLee]

my divide will conquer all.