Grafton ... top story

[MaineShark]

You mean like the Firearm Safety event at Porcfest, Joe?  I'm not impressed by either of you guys's activism.

The event that occurred daily, with a dozen or two participants?  It went quite well.

Not that it was activism, really, anyway.  Just information.  I answered a lot of great questions from the crowd, though, which tells me they were actually engaged and learning.

Joe

[thinkliberty]

I have also at length explained why I have no moral objection to the many services in Grafton being paid for with tax dollars...

Yes, theoretically, taxes are theft, I fully understand that. But people who are being stolen from don't and before you can change the system you have to convince the people...

You have no moral objection to theft? really?

Theoretically, taxes are theft just like theoretically, water is wet.

What do you think the people who don't like being stolen from should do to you for stealing from them? Because like you said, you fully understand that taxation is theft.

What should those new people do when they've realized that taxation is theft and you've requested that your political gang steal their homes, if you don't get $40,000?

[Lex]

You have no moral objection to theft? really?

The principles of liberty, freedom, anarcho-capitalism are philosophies that require some belief. As such, it isn't that much different from the statist philosophy that requires people to believe in the existence of country, government and the necessity of taxes. Majority of people don't equate paying taxes to having someone come and steal their car.

Granted, the philosophy of liberty allows the greatest freedom for everyone compared to the alternative but it does attack and require the destruction of force based philosophies. For example, the way you and MainShark are attacking me. The amount of negative words and antagonism that has been used against me is much more than has been used by the local government to get the majority of the Grafton population to pay property taxes. Most Grafton residents just get a bill and they pay it, mostly because they were raised to pay their taxes and it probably didn't occur to them to do anything different.

Theoretically, taxes are theft just like theoretically, water is wet.

My neighbors will not disagree with me that water is wet but they will pause at the thought that taxes are theft. Hence the paradigm issue.

What do you think the people who don't like being stolen from should do to you for stealing from them? Because like you said, you fully understand that taxation is theft.

I would sincerely hope that they would get a little upset. But expect that not everyone will feel that way, some people will actually resist and cling to the idea of government funded by taxes. "Who will take care of the sick and dying?", etc.

What should those new people do when they've realized that taxation is theft and you've requested that your political gang steal their homes, if you don't get $40,000?

If you get the majority of residents to believe that taxes are theft you will have a lot more success in getting rid of property taxes (or at least reducing them to the point where we're only paying the state mandated amount, until we can get out of that too). It will be much easier to start subscription service and get people to voluntarily donate once they believe in the principles of a voluntary society.

[thinkliberty]

What do you think the people who don't like being stolen from should do to you for stealing from them? Because like you said, you fully understand that taxation is theft.

I would sincerely hope that they would get a little upset....

What do you want those people do to you after they get upset for requesting your political gang steal their homes, unless they give you money?

What would you do to me, if I had a gang and I request that they steal your home, unless you pay me money?

What should those new people do when they've realized that taxation is theft and you've requested that your political gang steal their homes, if you don't get $40,000?

If you get the majority of residents to believe that taxes are theft you will have a lot more success in getting rid of property taxes (or at least reducing them to the point where we're only paying the state mandated amount, until we can get out of that too). It will be much easier to start subscription service and get people to voluntarily donate once they believe in the principles of a voluntary society.

You didn't answer my question.

What should those new people do when they've realized that taxation is theft and you've requested that your political gang steal their homes, if you don't get $40,000? Because like you said, you fully understand that taxation is theft.

Should they start stealing from their neighbors, because if they don't you will?

Should they start protecting their neighbors from people who want to steal from them?

If they should protect their neighbors from people who want to steal from them: How should they protect their neighbors from you and your political gang? 

[MaineShark]

Majority of people don't equate paying taxes to having someone come and steal their car.

Yeah, because folks like you are right there, giving them excuses to use in place of reason.

And, of course, it isn't equivalent to someone stealing their car.  It's equivalent to someone robbing them at gunpoint.  They don't just sneak up and take money; they send you a letter telling you to pay them, or else.  And "or else" involves the recipient being murdered by thugs, unless he complies.

Granted, the philosophy of liberty allows the greatest freedom for everyone compared to the alternative but it does attack and require the destruction of force based philosophies. For example, the way you and MainShark are attacking me. The amount of negative words and antagonism that has been used against me is much more than has been used by the local government to get the majority of the Grafton population to pay property taxes. Most Grafton residents just get a bill and they pay it, mostly because they were raised to pay their taxes and it probably didn't occur to them to do anything different.

You know better.  They can claim ignorance.  You can't.

Joe

[Lex]

Can't have a free society if people are ignorant.

[MaineShark]

Can't have a free society if people are ignorant.

Yes, we can.

Knowing why it's wrong to initiate force is not required to have freedom.  Folks merely need to refrain from doing so.

Joe

[thinkliberty]

Can't have a free society if people are ignorant.

What should a free society do to people who demand $40,000 dollars or they will have their political gang steal your home, when you don't pay them?   

I want you to tell your neighbors how to deal with you fairly, when the majority of people believe that taxes are theft and I have a lot more success.

Don't try the Nuremberg defense, it doesn't work. You are accountable for the things that you do, because you said it yourself "taxes are theft, I fully understand that."

What do you think the penalty for theft should be in a free society? How do you want to deal with thieves? 

[Lex]

Can't have a free society if people are ignorant.

Eliminating government services without educating the public or getting their support will result in the opposite: more laws, higher taxes and more services.

[thinkliberty]

Can't have a free society if people are ignorant.

Eliminating government services without educating the public or getting their support will result in the opposite: more laws, higher taxes and more services.

Are you debating yourself? Or are you just repeating yourself because you don't want to tell people how you want to be punished?

It's obvious that you'll continue to steal from people until a free society stops you and your political gang.

What do you think should happen to thieves and their political gangs when I educate the public and get their support?

I'd like to hear your answer, to make sure that your neighbors are fair to you, when I educate them and get their support.

[Lex]

I'd like to hear your answer, to make sure that your neighbors are fair to you, when I educate them and get their support.

It would be nice to get reimbursed for expenses incurred when responding to calls. Getting paid for responding to calls would be icing on the cake.

But I'm fine without any of those things. You worry about educating them, once that's done, we can discuss what to do with the fire department.

[thinkliberty]

I'd like to hear your answer, to make sure that your neighbors are fair to you, when I educate them and get their support.

It would be nice to get reimbursed for expenses incurred when responding to calls. Getting paid for responding to calls would be icing on the cake.

But I'm fine without any of those things. You worry about educating them, once that's done, we can discuss what to do with the fire department.

If you want to get reimburse for expenses incurred when responding to calls and to get paid, maybe you should stop requesting that your political gang steal the homes of the people that you want payment from.

If a competing fire department started to steal from you to pay for itself, would you be okay with that?

Would you stop the people stealing from you? Would you punish them?

If you would punish them, what would their punishment be?

If you would stop them, how would you stop them; when they threaten to steal your home and threatened to kill you if you didn't let them?

I need answers to this so I can educate the public. I want to make sure that I don't mis-educate them.

[Russell Kanning]

roasting hot dogs over foam is more fun than this

Isn't it past your bedtime? 

yes
this is what happens when I have a chocolate smoothie at 9pm

[Lex]

Hypothetical questions are useful tools if you are trying to teach someone new concepts. I already understand the concepts. Repeating them over and over again and asking me hypothetical questions to try and highlight the inherent violence in government is a waste of your and my time. I already know that government is based on violence.

I'm not interested in ideological, pie in the sky, conjectures. I'm only interested in what can be done practically that would have the most desired outcome. There are other people in this movement that are good at coming up with and implementing radical changes and I will encourage them to do that. And there have been some successes there but from my point of view there has been even more tangible success from those working inside the system to reduce taxes and laws (gentler oppression). I think working towards both gentler oppression and the elimination of the system in parallel is the best strategy for a better life today and for an even better life in the future.

Demanding the fire department stop accepting funds from the town without providing alternative solutions is negligent. Considering you don't even live in Grafton it's pompous of you to pretend to know what is best for this community. Every town will require a different set of people and a different strategy to bring the most possible freedom in the least amount of time with the best prospects for longevity. There is a lot of opposition to reducing property taxes and eliminating laws here. If you look at the voting records in Grafton you will see that most people don't mind paying for things, they even vote to approve warrant articles that increase the yearly budget. Don't forget that Grafton is also home to Catherine Mulholland.

Your confusion in understanding the situation in Grafton is that parts of the government services here are willing to change if people demand it, instead of the usual case where people want change and the government is resisting. You get people to demand change and change will happen (by that I don't mean two anarchists harassing one fire fighter, instead you need to convince most of the land owners in Grafton). Like I said earlier, the Grafton Fire Department and probably the Ambulance Department would be more than happy to submit a budget of $0 if other revenue streams are provided. The Grafton Ambulance department has already implemented soft billing to go in that direction but it will take time. It's important to point out that a lot of people were not happy with what the Ambulance department did with the soft billing, I can only imagine the outcry if the fire department went private! Those people are the ones who need convincing, not the departments.

And Catherine Mulholland needs to be deported, but there is a separate thread for that. 

[thinkliberty]

Hypothetical questions are useful tools if you are trying to teach someone new concepts. I already understand the concepts. Repeating them over and over again and asking me hypothetical questions to try and highlight the inherent violence in government is a waste of your and my time. I already know that government is based on violence.

Your confusion in understanding the situation in Grafton is that parts of the government services here are willing to change if people demand it

I'm not confused in the situation in Grafton. You might not like what happens to you when people hold you and your political gang accountable.

You don't have a preference on how your neighbors stop or punish people for stealing?   

Are you are telling me they should they do what ever they feel like doing to stop you and punish you? Anything they are willing to do will be okay with you?

Do you think your neighbors should deport you, like you want to deport Catherine Mulholland?