We had to kick Ethan out

[Kat Kanning]

You seem to think cuddling was OK.

[Mike Barskey]

You seem to think cuddling was OK.

Was cuddling: Ethan holding one of the kids embraced in his arms on the couch? Was he spooning with one of the kids? That's how I cuddle. I think that's inappropriate for Ethan and the kids.

Was cuddling: Ethan sitting on the couch petting a cat that was in one of the kids' laps? To me, that's slightly odd, but not necessarily suggestive of anything sexual.

Again, I didn't witness this. I understand why you would be better than me at seeing signs of improper sexual behavior. What you described here does not sound sexual or predatory to me, but I didn't see it!

And, again, to stress the point: I am glad Ethan is no longer here because his actions made people uncertain of his intent around the kids, and he did not change his behavior when told this. And, of course, I do not think inappropriate touching* between Ethan and the kids should be tolerated. I'm not defending him, but I'm also not condemning him yet (though, again, I'm glad he's not here any more), because I saw nothing and what has been described does not sound, to me, to be sexual.


* I think when they touch each other while playing games or while carrying things at work, for examples, is not inappropriate.

[Mike Barskey]

Also, I want to be sure you know, since text messages do not convey emotion or gestures or intonation, that I am not angry or challenging you. I am merely asking questions to try to determine whether I would qualify what you saw the same way you qualify it.

[Russell Kanning]

yep that sums it up for me
John was shocked at his behavior and explanations about a week or so ago
before i talked with Ethan, I conferred with Bridgette
she had talked with the kids and felt a little more comfortable
so I told Ethan that he should change his behavior, so Bridgette was happy

a week goes by .... Kat and John see Ethan cozying up to a kid on the couch
later that day Bridgette asks me to do something after getting a phone call from Kat
so I told Ethan he had to make plans and that Bridgette wanted him gone in a couple of day and that we would discuss it that evening

by the time Ethan came home Kat was ready to oust him and I had learned that Ethan used the term "cuddling" in reference to what he likes to do with the kids. Once I knew his intentions, I saw no reason to have him stay any longer.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Barskey, I got a bridge in Manhattan, I can give you a good deal on.

Will Kat be autographing bats?

[Mike Barskey]

I think I'm not communicating well. I was trying to figure out how Russell "knew his intentions," (or how Kat or John did) since, judging only from their descriptions and the kids' reports, I am unable to know what Ethan's intentions were. But perhaps it's just an impression they got from the scene in general and are unable to convey it to me. Anyway, my curiosity is not the topic of this thread anyway, so I'll give up this line of questioning.

[Russell Kanning]

that is a good idea .... sell autographed bats for specialty uses

btw ..... Ethan what have  we misunderstood?

[dalebert]

It may have been harmless, but if he were asked to stop by a parent because they were uneasy about it and he didn't, that part seems pretty black & white.  If either the kid or a parent/guardian is uncomfortable about what you're doing, you should acknowledge that you're invading someone's personal space bubble and stop.

[Mike Barskey]

It may have been harmless, but if he were asked to stop by a parent because they were uneasy about it and he didn't, that part seems pretty black & white.  If either the kid or a parent/guardian is uncomfortable about what you're doing, you should acknowledge that you're invading someone's personal space bubble and stop.

I agree, Dale.

And, again, to stress the point: I am glad Ethan is no longer here because his actions made people uncertain of his intent around the kids, and he did not change his behavior when told this.

Since I think nothing more serious happened, the part about this that bothers me is Ethan's apparent disregard for his roommates' opinions, especially Brigitte's. He was told that his actions were making people uncomfortable, yet he chose to not change his behavior or even discuss it with them.

[shyfrog]

Common Sense

While it may not be scientific, it takes all of the information about subjects, situations, character, and myriad pieces of a scenario and weaves them together in a tapestry that can be viewed with clarity at a distance but not make a lot of sense or connection close up.

At this point, I am leaning toward the possibility that this was experimentation in a fetishist fashion. Pushing the envelope to see where a particular fascination would take Ethan. I may be wrong, but that is the nature of common sense. Will Ethan go so far as to admit something like what I just described if it were indeed true? Would it reflect poorly or positively on him if he admitted it? If he apologized? If he promised not to do it again? I think we're past some of those points already since he did not take Russell's initial admonition to heart.

Ethan has told me he respects my kids and me as a father. Despite that, I really don't want Ethan around my kids and I'm grateful that something was done about it. It really felt a lot like back pedaling to me.

[Lloyd Danforth]

At this point, I am leaning toward the possibility that this was experimentation in a fetishist fashion. Pushing the envelope to see where a particular fascination would take Ethan. I may be wrong, but that is the nature of common sense.

Southeast Manhattan, near the Seaport.

[MaineShark]

I think Baskey had some good questions.  As a parent, I appreciate having as much info as possible, so I can determine whether this individual may or may not be a danger.

Kicking him out is a property rights and parents' rights issue, regardless of his behavior.  The demand could have been "don't play soccer with those kids," and if he turned around and played soccer with them again, the parent(s) and those in charge of the property had every right to kick him out.

Since that part is settled, I think it would be helpful if Ethan spoke up and gave his version of events, to address the other issue of whether there is any future danger.

Joe

[shyfrog]

At this point, I am leaning toward the possibility that this was experimentation in a fetishist fashion. Pushing the envelope to see where a particular fascination would take Ethan. I may be wrong, but that is the nature of common sense.

Southeast Manhattan, near the Seaport.

I don't buy bridges. I build or burn them, depending on the market. 

[shyfrog]

Kicking him out is a property rights and parents' rights issue, regardless of his behavior.  The demand could have been "don't play soccer with those kids," and if he turned around and played soccer with them again, the parent(s) and those in charge of the property had every right to kick him out.

Right of exclusion    One of the pillars of property rights.

[Tom Sawyer]

This discussion reminds me of the left brain vs. right brain... I notice that most libertarian folks are predominately left brain dominant... analytical, linear, present the "facts".  Right brain is more intuitive, a sense, nonlinear, in this case what is the motivation behind the person's actions.

I observe people and try to determine what motivates a person... the reasons behind their actions. My son plays with his friends in the underground... sometimes wrestling, heck Kat even used to tie him up.     There was never any doubt about what was motivating the actions I saw... it never made me uncomfortable... in fact it made me happy.

As another example, I have a tendency to tease and mess with people I like. In Mike's case, I've messed with him about being a cop magnet etc., however when I noticed Mike was growing a little tired of my nonsense I backed off... That's what you can hope for... for someone to back off.

A wolf smiling at a lamb is a threat... the wolf doesn't have to physically even do anything.

Kat and Russell have both been very positive forces in my family's life... Their care and concern for William's best interests has been proven to me over and over again. They both have experience with child molestation... I trust their judgement completely in these matters, and Hoyt Farm is a wonderful environment for kids.    The fact is shown by the swift and sure action in this case.