We had to kick Ethan out

[EthanLeeVita]

After talking to Jason Talley, he thought I should make it absolutely clear that no, I do not have sexual feelings towards children.

[Tom Sawyer]

After talking to Jason Talley, he thought I should make it absolutely clear that no, I do not have sexual feelings towards children.

So your claim is to being "anti-ageist" and not realizing that it would be inappropriate to listen to and have discussions about sexual matters with other people's children that you hardly know?

[Russell Kanning]

I did not begin using the word cuddling. It was mentioned to me by Russell during a ride to Man Cave to get wood, where I was informed I would likely have two days left to leave. Because of the short ride from Grafton Gulch, not much got said, but I was confused because I had not been cuddling and was rerunning the morning's memories through my head to recall what could have led to that.

Actually that word came up that evening after John had spoken with Kevin.
In the afternoon, I only knew that Kat and John had been slightly disturbed by your actions in the morning and told you that.
Cuddling with a 11 or 12 year old is not normal behavior in my book. I only see bad motives in that case.

[cathleeninnh]

Anyone claiming to be anti-ageist and calls children mature will act inappropriately with children at some point.

[Puke]

Awhile ago, there was a sunday show with Dale, Puke, and Luthor about sexual fetishes. I had downloaded it and was listening to it with Tamber and Daniel in the room.

Yeah, that's just weird. Children were not the intended audience of that show.
Especially if they ain't your own kids.

[Jim Johnson]

Awhile ago, there was a sunday show with Dale, Puke, and Luthor about sexual fetishes. I had downloaded it and was listening to it with Tamber and Daniel in the room.

Yeah, that's just weird. Children were not the intended audience of that show.
Especially if they ain't your own kids.

That is the episode that got FTL kicked off a pirate radio station. 

[MaineShark]

Anyone claiming to be anti-ageist and calls children mature will act inappropriately with children at some point.

Universal statements are usually wrong.

I know "children" who are more mature than many "adults" I've had the displeasure of dealing with.

Heck, my youngest, at 22 months, knows to put a coaster under a cup before she puts it down on the table.  No one ever instructed her to do that; she just saw that we did it, and decided it was the right thing to do.  I've had to ask folks who are a couple dozen times her age, to show the same level of respect for my furniture.

Age may be an indicator of maturity, and often is, but it is by no means a certain thing.

Joe

[Tom Sawyer]

Perhaps the "education" in manners show could be a show suggestion...

As Becky says... "I don't have time to teach other people's children manners."   

That is the episode that got FTL kicked off a pirate radio station. 

[John]

I hear tell that "Ethan" (who, BTW, is another guy who has changed his name) has referred to his expultion from Hoyt as joining the "Banned from Hoyt "Club."

Is he STILL not taking this seriously?

I think that MAYBE I am deciding to tell less of what I observed and maybe just let "Ethan" speak for himself. He seems to be doing a fine job. Among other stuff:

Awhile ago, there was a sunday show with Dale, Puke, and Luthor about sexual fetishes. I had downloaded it and was listening to it with Tamber and Daniel in the room.

Yeah, that's just weird. Children were not the intended audience of that show.
Especially if they ain't your own kids.

[shyfrog]

My children are all here for the weekend. They are healthy, happy, and communicative.

Looking forward to spending quality time with my family!

[Lex]

Perhaps the "education" in manners show could be a show suggestion...

As Becky says... "I don't have time to teach other people's children manners."   

That would definitely be an interesting show.

As far as teaching other children goes, I definitely agree. That was my catalyst for trying to distill in writing the expected etiquette and manners instead of relying solely on teaching/learning by example. Society is so screwed up it's hard to find a lot of good examples out there, also having it written can lend itself to better explanation and self-correction. Maybe have it as a wiki were people can contribute stories and ideas for why things are best done in a certain way.

The fun thing about this from my perspective is that some things are definitely going to be different from family to family, so the idea was to write a program that would generate a guidebook based on a questionnaire that would tailor the etiquette, manners and other interaction/behavioral guidelines to individual families internally but still have a set of common guidelines facing the world. For example a Christian family may want to include certain things in their internal facing guidelines that an agnostic family may not, but at the same time they should still have a common model for interacting between the families.

Basically bringing the concept of Country and Diplomacy down to the family and individual level.

[Fluff and Stuff]

Awhile ago, there was a sunday show with Dale, Puke, and Luthor about sexual fetishes. I had downloaded it and was listening to it with Tamber and Daniel in the room.

Yeah, that's just weird. Children were not the intended audience of that show.
Especially if they ain't your own kids.

I turned off the show.  It was just too much for me to even listen to.  I am glad that all of you are so much more mature than I am.  Someone needs to be mature.

[anthonybpugh]

Based on both sides of the story that I have heard so far this is essentially what has happened. Ethan did things that others found to be poor etiquette but because it's poor etiquette to point out poor etiquette it took a long time and a lot of frustration to finally climax at Ethan being kicked out.

What I'm getting at is that maybe being bashful about pointing out poor etiquette isn't the best long term approach. And in the grand scheme of things not teaching others about etiquette puts people into permanent classes, whatever etiquette your parents taught you basically defines who your friends are going to be for the rest of your life... unless you re-education yourself. If discussing etiquette was a more open and inviting subject I think people would get along better and there would be less frustration.

By definition etiquette is specific to a locale and as people come to the free state from all over the country with different sets of etiquette there are bound to be conflicts.

Poor etiquette?  Sounds more like red flags. 

That weird feeling that people occasionally get about someone else, the gut feeling or intuition, is the monkey part of your brain warning you of potential danger. 

[Lex]

I think being able to discuss sexual fetishes with acquaintances isn't an issue of maturity but a function of personal preference, taste, modesty and etiquette.

It's incorrect, in my opinion, to generalize that because someone is of a certain age or "maturity" it means that you can talk about sexual fetishes with them.

Also, when people say "maturity" are we talking physical maturity or mental maturity? There is quite a distinction.

[Lex]

Poor etiquette?  Sounds more like red flags. 

That weird feeling that people occasionally get about someone else, the gut feeling or intuition, is the monkey part of your brain warning you of potential danger.

In terms of personal space, as described in the articles I linked to, it varies greatly from country to country and in some places very close proximity is acceptable. So, yes, it is etiquette, and depending on where a person was raised and thus the local etiquette about acceptable distances would drive their intuition. In America we prefer much larger distances for our personal space than in other countries.

As far as the sexual fetish discussion, some parents may not care in which case it becomes up to the child to decide if they want to expose themselves to this information. Most people I know though, would find it disturbing, thus etiquette would suggest not to do it. And people who see it will have a strong emotional reaction.

I think that the intuition that guided Kat was simply a manifestation of the etiquette of personal space and what is okay to discuss with children. Ethan violated Kats expectation of behavior (etiquette) and she had a strong feeling about it. This is how etiquette is maintained and we remain sort of civilized.

The benefit of such an etiquette is that it prevents an endless discussion of whether what Ethan did hurt the kids in some way. There is obviously no true way to find that out and having etiquette for these situations side steps that question without having to argue. Besides, when it comes to kids, always err on the side of safety, right?

"Etiquette tells one which fork to use. Manners tell one what to do when your neighbor doesn't."