Networking Site Subscription

[Lex]

Over the years there have been a few people here and there either asking for a networking site or offering to build one (me being one of them). Last time I worked on this was 3 years ago (search for tuathnetwork on this forum for more details). I would really like to put more time into this project but given that it takes quite a bit of time investment I'm curious to get an idea of what the possible return on investment might be. Let me define some features that I think such a networking site would have and you tell me if you'd be willing to pay for it.

Social Features
- Invite Only Network: This means that there is a link between everyone in the system and there is always someone that can vouch for someone else.
- Many of the Facebook/Twitter features such as a home page with update statuses of your friends, etc. But it would be better tailored to the kinds of activities performed by activists in NH with porc 411, for example, being very integral.
- Searching for people with similar interests. Finding/meeting people for friendship or dating purposes.
- It would show recent posts from forums such as Free Talk Live, NH Underground, Free State Project, etc.
- You would be able to set one page as your home page and get a birds eye view of everything that's going on in the NH freedom movement.

Productivity
- Personal calendar, notepad, task/todo lists, shopping list maker, etc.
- Email (you@tuauthnetwork.com)
- Budgeting

Financial
- The core system will be built on a ripple like payment and trust component.
- You would be able to make payments using alternate currencies.
- Make or apply for loans.
- Buy/sell things.

Business
  - For someone that's starting a business or already has an established busuiness the site would have modules to help you run your business and better interact with customers. For example, there would be modules such as:
     - doo-to-door transportation service: this module would make it easy for people to say where they need to be and when, the system would plan out a route for an entire day or maybe on the fly as new requests come in, then person doing the driving can pick-up drop off people in the most optimal way. this might be an easy business to start and this module would make it easy to run it.
      - online store: this would have basic features like inventory and online browsing of items, usually would also be able to make purchases and make payments using alternative currencies and/or ripple.
     - food/grocery delivery: you can open a business to deliver home cooked food to people or possibly do grocery shopping for people (underground version of peapod.com)
  - Each module would be customizable with your brand and way of running things. You could make the site totally public and let outsiders do business with you or you can only allow tuathnetwork users or even target specific micro-networks of people.

Identity
- Physical ID Cards. For an optional fee you could get a plastic id card with your name and photo on it and a bar code or something like that which can be read by an application installed on a smart phone. This way if you meet someone at a party they can "scan" your card through their phone and either add you as a friend on the network or even make monetary transactions.

Security
- For things like budget, todo lists, etc. You will have the option to encrypt your data without providing a decryption key to the service. You would have to use a desktop application with a locally stored key to work with this data. An equivalent smart phone app would also be provided. This way you can backup your data on the server and have it be available on different computers/devices but the server would have no way of access in it (which also means you won't be able to make changes to it through he web).

Transparency
- All of your data will be exportable from the application so that if you chose to stop using the site but want to preserve (or even move your data to another services) all of it will be exportable as one giant XML or SQLite database file. It would have all of your todos, messages, contacts, etc.
- This part is still in research phase but: there will be a streaming feed (accessible to users of the system only) of all transactions in the system with the parties ids and item/service provided encrypted but the amounts and date of transactions in plain text. The goal of this would be to provide a way for third parties to audit the system. Someone could setup a feed receiver and log all of the transactions. When there is a dispute and the claim is that tuathnetwork is somehow adjusting the numbers, the affected parties would be able to approach the auditor and providing their public keys or some other validating scheme retrieve the transaction log to see if the numbers in the auditors system match what's in tuathnetwork. This would only be implemented if there is a sure way to protect the identities of parties involved in a transaction and at the same time still make it worthwhile for auditing purposes.

Source Code
- Most of the code for the relevant applications will be open source. That would include any frameworks developed as part of the project, the desktop/smart phone client, the ripple based payment and routing system and many other tools and libraries. The web application itself will stay closed. At least initially, it may all be open sourced eventually if there is demand and once the site/brand has become established.
  - The goal would be to allow projects in other places like Free State Wyoming to run their own instance.

New features would be added as the project gets funding.

[Pat McCotter]

I would not use such a service. Facebook keeps me in tenuous touch with family and friends. Important news involves telephoning folks. I rarely post things to facebook. These forums are where I usually reside.

[Ron Helwig]

I'm not sure I see the benefit over existing resources. With a lot of people hoping that Diaspora will solve the issues of security/privacy that Facebook has, I expect that will also get some use and may be something you should look into.

[Lex]

I'm not sure I see the benefit over existing resources. With a lot of people hoping that Diaspora will solve the issues of security/privacy that Facebook has, I expect that will also get some use and may be something you should look into.

Facebook like features are only a very small part of what I'm suggesting above and not even a core functionality.

The core features of an underground networking site will be to provide alternative ways of making payments and a way to build trust networks. Facebook or Diaspora as far as I can tell do not have any future plans of offering any of those things and I don't see why they would. Those projects are targeting mainstream users. I don't think any platform that is targeting average citizens will fit the life style of liberty activists in NH. I think we need a custom solution that can better integrate with the alternate currencies ideas, Porcupine 411, agorist markets and other sub-movements in this state.

Diaspora solves the problem of owning your own data but it also introduces the problem of every user being responsible for backing up their data. If you use Diaspora and your hard drive crashes you lose all of your data. And if you are going to be backing it up to a remote server then why bother host it locally in the first place and eat up your personal bandwidth?

I think there is a lot of usefulness in being decentralized but I think it's mostly beneficial in emergency situations. Under normal day-to-day operations it doesn't make sense to require everyone to have their own server. And if most people using Diaspora end up hosting their accounts on a central server then the only difference between Diaspora and Facebook is that Diaspora will allow you to download your data which is something that, for example, Status.Net already does.

Also, Google Wave already does what Diaspora is trying to achieve but way better. The Wave protocol is an open standard and Google has an open source implementation of their server that anyone can install on their personal machine. Diaspora is basically rewritting a much simpler and less functional version of Google Wave.

http://www.waveprotocol.org/

Someone has already implemented a Wave server in python:

http://pygowave.net/

[thinkliberty]

Also, Google Wave already does what Diaspora is trying to achieve but way better. The Wave protocol is an open standard and Google has an open source implementation of their server that anyone can install on their personal machine. Diaspora is basically rewritting a much simpler and less functional version of Google Wave.

So you are going to skin google's wave to look like the nhunderground.com?

[Lex]

So you are going to skin google's wave to look like the nhunderground.com?

Eventually as the wave protocol becomes more popular and the open source implementation is further along I think it will make sense to adopt it. I don't know if you've used google wave but it's pretty neat when you want to collaborate with people.

As I said in every post in this thread so far, the main goal of a underground networking site is to provide an alternate payment framework and a trust system. Something none of the other main stream systems will every offer because there isn't demand for it outside of the liberty movement.

[Russell Kanning]

very cool idea
i agree that your ideas are nothing like facebook
it would have the stuph our original tuath was missing
even if only some of the features worked, it would be very useful to me

[Terror Australis]

So you are going to skin google's wave to look like the nhunderground.com?

Eventually as the wave protocol becomes more popular and the open source implementation is further along I think it will make sense to adopt it. I don't know if you've used google wave but it's pretty neat when you want to collaborate with people.

As I said in every post in this thread so far, the main goal of a underground networking site is to provide an alternate payment framework and a trust system. Something none of the other main stream systems will every offer because there isn't demand for it outside of the liberty movement.

Lex you should check out http://bitcoin .org as the payment system you are talking about already exists.It just needs  the rating/reputation implementation.Think of a currency that is distributed and has no central banking control,in effect everyone is their own bank and the payment system has no transaction fees.A distributed p2p reputation and rating system is sorely needed but you will probably find resistance from people who dont get what you are talking about.You really need to see bitcoin in action to understand the game changing aspect of it.

By the way Lex's ideas are pretty visionary!

[Lex]

Lex you should check out http://bitcoin .org as the payment system you are talking about already exists.It just needs  the rating/reputation implementation.Think of a currency that is distributed and has no central banking control,in effect everyone is their own bank and the payment system has no transaction fees.A distributed p2p reputation and rating system is sorely needed but you will probably find resistance from people who dont get what you are talking about.You really need to see bitcoin in action to understand the game changing aspect of it.

I did some reading about this and looked on the forum. I found this post that kind of scares me:

What happens when network is split for prolonged time and reconnected?
http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=661.0

It seems that the answer to the above, according to posters on that thread, is that whichever part of the network is smaller loses all of their money!!!  That doesn't seem like a very robust monetary system.

I think the idea is really neat but a monetary system that relies so heavily on always being connected to the network and in fact causing you to lose all of your money if you're disconnected for an extended period of time just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

By the way Lex's ideas are pretty visionary!

Thanks! I hope I can make it a reality.

[Lex]

Having said what I don't like about Bitcoin let me explain why I do like about Ripple:

Simplicity - Ripple is a much simpler system on a technical level, there are no hashes or encryption schemes or time servers, there is no dependency on an always on internet connection. All it is is a group of people that loan to each other. Theoretically you could even implement this system without computers, although it would be difficult it's not impossible. The same can't be said for bitcoin which very heavily depends on how modern computers work (money is generated by using up CPU time) and the extreme dependence on an always on connection to the network. You also can't make transactions at all if the internet is down, with ripple it is possible to do transactions using pen and paper and to enter them into the system later. The concept that underpins the ripple system has been around for thousands of years and thus can be understood by someone who has never used or will never have access to a computer.

Supply - Ripples money supply grows organically as more people enter into the network and begin to trust others with more and more money (IOUs). The bitcoin money supply is arbitrarily capped with arbitrary future growth plans.

Survivability - You can easily print out a list of your IOUs/Accounts with other people and no matter what happens to your computer you know who owes you and to whom you owe. If all computers were destroyed and yet everyone had a printed copy of their statements you could theoretically continue to operate, nowhere near as efficiently but it's not a total loss. And if down the line computers are available again you can enter in your account balances and go from there. Bitcoin can't operate when the network is down and if the network is down for an extended period of time you lose all of your money.

I believe that "money" as we know it is a broken parading, trying to digitize it doesn't solve the underlying problems. As technology improves or changes and civilization needs different resources to operate the "tangible" money will have to change. I don't think gold will be a good exchange of value forever and neither will bitcoins. The ripple system on the other hand transcends all of these changes because it's not based on the idea of "money".

[thinkliberty]

So you are going to skin google's wave to look like the nhunderground.com?

Eventually as the wave protocol becomes more popular and the open source implementation is further along I think it will make sense to adopt it. I don't know if you've used google wave but it's pretty neat when you want to collaborate with people.

As I said in every post in this thread so far, the main goal of a underground networking site is to provide an alternate payment framework and a trust system. Something none of the other main stream systems will every offer because there isn't demand for it outside of the liberty movement.

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/update-on-google-wave.html

Wave goodbye to wave, it's dead 

[Lex]

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/update-on-google-wave.html

Wave goodbye to wave, it's dead 

A lot of the code is open source. All that's "dead" is wave.google.com, not the platform or much of the innovative features. Those will live on. Unlike if this was all proprietary, then yes, this would be unfortunate.

[Terror Australis]

Having said what I don't like about Bitcoin let me explain why I do like about Ripple:

Simplicity - Ripple is a much simpler system on a technical level, there are no hashes or encryption schemes or time servers, there is no dependency on an always on internet connection. All it is is a group of people that loan to each other. Theoretically you could even implement this system without computers, although it would be difficult it's not impossible. The same can't be said for bitcoin which very heavily depends on how modern computers work (money is generated by using up CPU time) and the extreme dependence on an always on connection to the network. You also can't make transactions at all if the internet is down, with ripple it is possible to do transactions using pen and paper and to enter them into the system later. The concept that underpins the ripple system has been around for thousands of years and thus can be understood by someone who has never used or will never have access to a computer.

Supply - Ripples money supply grows organically as more people enter into the network and begin to trust others with more and more money (IOUs). The bitcoin money supply is arbitrarily capped with arbitrary future growth plans.

Survivability - You can easily print out a list of your IOUs/Accounts with other people and no matter what happens to your computer you know who owes you and to whom you owe. If all computers were destroyed and yet everyone had a printed copy of their statements you could theoretically continue to operate, nowhere near as efficiently but it's not a total loss. And if down the line computers are available again you can enter in your account balances and go from there. Bitcoin can't operate when the network is down and if the network is down for an extended period of time you lose all of your money.

I believe that "money" as we know it is a broken parading, trying to digitize it doesn't solve the underlying problems. As technology improves or changes and civilization needs different resources to operate the "tangible" money will have to change. I don't think gold will be a good exchange of value forever and neither will bitcoins. The ripple system on the other hand transcends all of these changes because it's not based on the idea of "money".

The ripple project has stalled - how do you get around not having enough users to keep the system going?It seems to require far too much cooperation from banks.Couldnt you just as easily settle your ripple debts using bitcoins as you do using money?If you provided a choice to the customer I dont see why not.There should be no restriction on what currency you use to settle your debts in a decentralized market.A combination of Bitcoin and ripplepay  is not mutually exclusive imo.

Project Status

Ripple is currently dormant as a project. Growing any network is a chicken-and-egg problem: It's not useful until there are lots of users, but it's hard to get users to join if it's not useful. We've suspended technical development of the Ripple concept until we have a convincing story about how to overcome this problem. Read more here, and contribute to the discussion if you have any thoughts.

A quote from a user familiar with ripple explains the complimentary nature of the two systems-

ripplepay is not an alternative to bitcoins, it is complementary...the power of a combination of a cryptocurrency with a peer to peer credit network like ripple is awesome.

bitcoins are cash, ripple does credit. Any cash system will always get credit derivatives of it created, since if a system works as cash then it must be scarce, and demanded, which naturally causes credit derivatives to appear.

bitcoins can be used to clear debts accrued in ripple. in particular, ripple provides for peer to peer credit clearing. Currently the residual debts left at the end of a ripple chain must be cleared outside the system using whatever currency the two parties agree (the debt can even be settled by a favour, like having the debtor wash your car or something). But when these dents are settled for money, the two parties still have to go to a clearing house like a bank to settle the debt.

however with cryptocurrency, it becomes possible to settle debts peer-peer without using the mainstream clearing houses.

This also opens the possibility of having automated settlement - that is, when your ripple connection hits their credit limit with you, the system can be setup to automatically transfer bitcoins to settle the debt, even if both parties are asleep. THis would help to ensure that the ripple network maintains maximum liquidity, and makes ripple more attractive to merchants, who'd get paid immediately rather than havnig to settle debts outside the system after the fact. 

so      ripple=p2p credit
and     bitcoin=p2p cash

Personally I would not hold vast reserves of bitcoins it is merely a way to transact value over the internet without fees and central bankers.To settle your ripple debts in cash why should you be forced to use fiat money ?

[Russell Kanning]

ripple doesn't need any banks to every exist to work

[Lex]

The ripple project has stalled - how do you get around not having enough users to keep the system going?It seems to require far too much cooperation from banks.Couldnt you just as easily settle your ripple debts using bitcoins as you do using money?If you provided a choice to the customer I dont see why not.There should be no restriction on what currency you use to settle your debts in a decentralized market.A combination of Bitcoin and ripplepay  is not mutually exclusive imo.

You only need two users to make Ripple work. I don't really understand what metric or expectations the author had as to the adoption of his ripple system. I sincerely hope he wasn't expecting it to replace the US banking system overnight.

Ripple does not require any cooperation from banks. The whole point of ripple is to get away from banks.

You can use whatever currency you want to settle ripple debts. You can pay with chickens or with bitcoins or with toaster ovens. You can set your own exchange rates from toaster ovens to eggs.

A quote from a user familiar with ripple explains the complimentary nature of the two systems-
...
so      ripple=p2p credit
and     bitcoin=p2p cash

That is my understanding also. Anything of value can be used to repay a debt.

Also, the implementation of ripple that made it live was not p2p, it was centralized. The system I would build into the networking site would also be centralized. This was possibly what the author referred to when he said that there wasn't any adoption. I think he wanted people to start using the p2p aspect of the system and most people prefer just going to a website.

I think ripple has to start as a website and make it easy for people to do transactions. Then once more and more websites spring up allowing people to receive and make payments it can start to become decentralized. Trying to push decentralization from the start I think is just too much.