I lost round one with the thugs, won round two by TKO

[littlehawk]

I know there is a lot of writing here. I just fet like venting and sharing my experience. I recently watched a video where a lawyer and a retired cop put on a seminar and the main point they tried to address was NEVER talk to cops. Well, I tried that and it didn't work at all.

Cops are thugs. I tried but lost. Here goes. Its incomplete at this time. I hope to complete it asap. My hearing is in Sept. I am a 59 yr old guy trying to fight some battles. Once again, I did more harm than good. I know just enough to get myself in a jam . And/or maybe I do not know what battles to fight and what battles to avoid.UGH!

I visited a small touristy place will gift shops etc, a small park, a creek and a nice place with good energy. I frequent there often.

On this day I took my dog with me and walked the strip of shops and people and enjoyed the nice weather. Its always quite crowded and parking spaces on both sides of the road and in the park. Often you have to park a few miles away. Anyway, I parked my truck and proceeded to hit the strip with dog on a short leash. I saw a 40ish gal in a blue uniform with a small computer in her hand and she was positioned behind the rear of a SUV that was parked on the main strip. It was clear to me she was entering the license plate number of the SUV in her computer. I wish I had recorded..dammittt!

Me: Excuse maam, what are you doing?
Her: (she answer red in a short and sassy, "I am recording license plate numbers"
Me: ..and why is that?
Her: Vehicles are only allowed to be parked here for 3 hours.
Me.  And so after their 3 hours expire you issue them a summons?
Her: Well, I don't like to do that, sometimes I give them a warning.
Me: So could you tell me how many warnings you give out compared to how many tickets you issue.
Her: No, I do not keep track.
Me: Why do you even do such a job? You are penalizing tourists from spending money at the gift shops. I have been coming here for 5 years and never knew this was going on. Is this something new?
Her: (starting to get aggravated by my questions. BTW I am being polite, low toned and acting a bit "stupidly inquisitive).  She says, "Yes they just passed the law and signs are posted everywhere. (she pointed to one and I noticed they were frikken everywhere)
Me: Wow, that's a shame because to walk down both the strips, shop around and eat at a restaurant will easily eat up 3 hours of time. (Now here I go getting cocky). I say, " Don't you have anything better to do?"
Her: (the classic answer). I am just doing my job, paying my bills ya know?
Me: I see. But wouldn't it be better if you found a job that did not interfere with the freedom of other people who are doing no harm or damage. And actually what you do deters tourists from spending money at the business in this village.
Her: OK, I had enough of you. If you have a problem go take 4 blocks and take your complaints down to the police down at the station house. This is how I out food on my table.
Me: Do you sleep good at night knowing you ruin peoples vacation trips by issuing tickets and then making them pay the fines?
Her: That's it! She grabs out a walkie talkie and mumbles something I couldn't hear. (My guess is she might be calling the local cops. Time for me to boogie and off I go with my dog leashed at my side.

I get about 100 feet from where she was, cross the street at a crosswalk area and I hear a cop say, "excuse me sir, I'd like to talk with you."

Me; Sorry sir, I am busy and have no time to speak with you. (there are many people on the strip watching this) I also notice a second cop coming towards me.
Cop, Let me see your ID
Me I do not have any ID with me. Is it  a law that I carry ID?
Cop: yes it is
Me: under what statute?
Cop: it's a state and a federal law now step into the alley as I want to speak with you.
Me: I told you I am busy and I have no time to chat with you. Are you detaining me? If not, am I free to go? If you are detaining me then on what grounds? 
Cop: I am investigating your harassment to the women who issues parking tickets now step into the alley and lets discuss this. ( he wanted to get me away from all the people on the sidewalk i.e. tourists, etc)
Me: I choose to exercise my 5th amendment rights  and I have nothing to say to you sir.
Cop: If you do not step into the alley away from all these people and talk with me I will arrest you and impound your dog.
Me: On what grounds?
Cop; Obstructing an officers investigation.
Me: (thinking to myself.."oh shit') So I decided to go into the alley and I could sense he was getting pissed.
Cop: Put our hands behind your back. (been there done that before and knew what was coming next)
Me: No sir, I have committed no crime and there is no reason to handcuff me unless you are arresting me. Am I under arrest and if so, for what?
Now its escalates to a new level.
The second cop quickly gets in front of me and pulls out his taser and points it at my chest. He is 6 foot in front of me.
Cop (the one behind me): yelling: NOW put your hands behind your back or my partner will tase you.
I comply and the second cop takes my dog with leash. I am now handcuffed. He asked me if I have any weapons or drugs I me. I told him I have a pocketknife in the right rear pocket. The other cop takes it out. I told him I do not consent to a search. They rifle through all my pockets and take all my stuff ( digital camera, money, etc) I again tell them I do not consent to this search and ask again what am I being charged with. No answer.
Cop: You are going to jail, and your dog is being impounded.
I am then pushed into his SUV and the other cop puts my dog in his SUV. Again, I ask what's the charges, where are you taking my dog. No answer from either cop. No Miranda rights. (IMO they do not mean much anyway). Handcuffs way too tight and making my right hand go numb. I tell him about it. No reply from him.

Ok now people, I was trying to use the 5th amendment, say nothing to incriminate me and hope they would let me go. But I guess I am stupid. I guess I do not know enough about the laws and a person rights but just enough to get me into deep shit. In the back of the cruiser I think to myself "I'm fucked." Maybe I just should have talked to the cop and he probably would had let me go on my way. On the other hand, I am trying to do something, ANYTHING to stop the way police have been acting and attempting to make changes. even if I have to suffer. So, here I am off to the local copshop and wondering what to do next. (not to mention I was worried sick they were going to take my dog to a shelter). My dog I like my child..

Inside we go, the two cops and me. I am told to empty my pockets. I told them "you already did that before." Next, Up against the wall and spread em. I am frisked.

Me; Excuse me, what if I exercise my 5th amendment right and say nothing more and refuse to comply with all your requests?

Cop: You will be processed, booked  and shipped to the County jail, 800 dollars bond and your dog left impounded as well.

Me: On the charges of?
Cop: Obstruction of a official Police Investigation and Disorderly Conduct.

I had to take off my shoes, belt and necklace and they tossed me in a 4x6 ft grey wall cell with a 3 inch by 3inch window. It was cold and dark in there and depressing. I was worried more about my dog than myself. I wanted to call someone so they could get my dog asap but I was not offered a phone call and left in the cell for about 30 minutes.

Me: (now rethinking in remorse, pissed at myself and desperate) I think to myself..OK I will talk with him, screw the 5th because that isn't going to work. I now decide to pussy out and try to save my sorry-ass. ( Thoughts of lawyers fees, court dates, fines and confined in a cage put me over the top). These bastards are good at what they do. I was beaten.

Officer returns and asks me my name and DOB. I tell him. And then say "Um Officer, Lets talk this out, This is being blown out of proportion. I will talk with you and ask that allow me to go free of all charges and return me my dog. He told me it was I who had the bad attitude and by me not answering his questions from the beginning resulted in my consequences. I then asked him if I could make a phone call and he told me I was not allowed a phone call until I was jailed. (IMO, I was already "jailed"). I asked him where my dog was. He said "your dog is fine." He leaves.

I look outside the small window of my cell and could see all my possessions piled on a small table where they fingerprint people. Half was in a baggies and much of it was left loose. I had about 500 bucks in cash and lots of doo-dads (chapstick, guitar picks, gum).
I thought they were supposed to inventory that stuff. But here it is laying right out there as people are passing by and some lady even got fingerprinted right there as well.

Cop returns. Are you willing to talk with me? I say yes. (I know what he is after..an admission of guilt form me). He reads the Miranda bullcrap and wants to talk but before I must sign the wavier form.  I ask him if I do not sign it what would happen. Again his tells me I will go to jail and bond post of 800 dollars. I tell him it confuses me that by me exercising of a bill of rights will still put me in jail. His answer,  "You will have your day in court as for now you will be jailed until a hearing is set and then the judge decides your fate.

Me: So I am guilty before proven innocent?
No answer.
I repeat it. He ignores me and asks me to sign the waiver. I sign it.

<<<<<<<<To be con't>>>>>>>>>>

[TackleTheWorld]

  I wonder what they tell their kids when they ask if they caught any bad guys today.  "No, but I kidnapped and terrified some perfectly innocent people today."

[AntonLee]

this is so infuriating

[littlehawk]

Me: So I am guilty before proven innocent?
No answer.
I repeat it. He ignores me and asks me to sign the waiver. I sign it.

<<<<<<<<To be con't>>>>>>>>>>


I tell him I will answer some questions but may refuse to answer others. I told him there is no way anything I say will be an admission of guilt. (that is what he after now isn;t he?).

Cop: what happened?
Me: Is this be tape recorded or videoed or both?
Cop: No, neither.
Me: OK, let me understand this...I signed away my right to remain silent but if I would have pleaded the fifth and refused to comply what would have happened?
Cop: Your dog  would be impounded at a county shelter and you"d to to jail and have to post bond.
Cop: Are you married?
Me: That has nothing to do with this situation.
Cop: Where do you work?
Me: I wish not to discuss personal matters that really do not involve the charges your are holding me for. In fact I am asking you right now to use your authoritive disgression to let me go free, release my dog and I will leave this village.
Cop: I cant do that.You had your chance to talk with me on the sidewalk but you acted like a jerk and made a scene if front of all those people. If you would have talked with me I probably would have let you go, but you are a jerk and now you must be accountable for your actions. You are under arrest, now tell me what happened. 

I think to myself.." this asshole is calling me a jerk..imagine if I called him a jerk?"

He kept telling me I was under arrest and being charged with disorderly conduct and obstructing a investigaton but he kept denying me a phone call, never finger printed me and continually told me my dog was shipped to a county shelter. So at this point I am wondering if I was only being detained as that was more like it seemed. This is where I hope I can get some feedback for the forum.  Because at this point in time I am at this cops effing' mercy. He has repeatedly  refused to discuss constitutional rights on several occasions.

NOTE: (I need to learn more about "detainment"...like what justifies it and how long they can detain you.)

Cop: So tell me what happened.
Me: I saw a gal on Main Street talking down plate numbers and entering them into a computer. I was curiously polite and asked her what she was doing.  I could tell from her facial expression and tone of voice she was unhappy with my question. 
I imagine she has probably had to deal with many people who asked the same question as I did and/or dealt with infuriated people who were issued tickets. So, right from the start, I could tell she was not in a pleasant mood nor did she want to talk with me.  I asked her a few more questions (in regards to "the new law" and how many tickets she issued per day.

Cop (butts in on me..how rude): She told me you were waving your arms and speakng louding and making offensive gestures.   

Me: That is untrue but I do think she may have been having just a bad day. I was polite and low toned but I was trying to get my questions answered because I believe I have a right to ask a employee of mine these inquiries.

Cop..whoa whoa..an employee???

Me: yes. Its my understanding that her wages are paid for by my taxes in some shape, way or form ...much like your position is too..and the judges and all other bureaucratic agencies. Therefore I believe I had a right to question her as long as I remained calm and polite, which I did. I was not interferring with her job as I wayched her writing the plate numbers down. It was approximately a 4 minute discussion and if anyone was rude or disrespectful it was she and not I.  I also think (as of late) many people, not only me, are starting to question people in authoritive positions and it has been my experience that when this happens people like her (and even you) do not like it and quickly become one the defensive. As of late it seems people can not ask certain questions in the political arena without risking being arrested, dragged out of a courtroom, tased or databased into your files as a terrorist of some sort. I am 59 yrs old and find this quite disturbing in a place we call the land of the free. I think...

Cop: (cuts me off again) So tell me why you refused to speak with me when i clearly told you to stop and talk.

Me: Because I did nothing wrong and in all due respect I had no time to chat with you. I had a discussion with a lady, it ended and I went on my way, no one was hurt and no crime was committed. IMO, I think she got her feathers ruffled and called you guys because she has that authoritive option.  When you asked me to step into the alley I refused because I do not go into an alley with a stranger/s. I think the reason you wanted me to go into the alley was because you didn't want to let all the tourists and locals see how you were going to act. I knew if I did not comply with you that you and your partner would become aggressive. And surely you didnt want to let others see that. You asked me for ID and I told you I had none and to my knowledge theres no law stating I must show ID to you. You told me it was a state AND Federal law that I show it. I asked under what statute and you became angry, forced me into the alley and told me to put my arms behind my back. You had no reason to handcuff me. I was not aggressive, unarmed and had done no wrong. At this point I decided to exercise my 5th amend right and say no more and I told you so. Thats when your partner pointed the taser at my chest. IMO the usage of the taser was inappropiate and was not being used for you or your partners protection but  only being used as a compliance act. So you got your way, handcuffed me, frisked me without my consent,,( I said I did not consent to the search twice to you) you then pushed me into the car, avoided answering what I was charged with, took my dog and refused to answer any more questions regarding what was going on. I asked you if taking the 5th is justification to go to jail and you did not answer me.

<<con;t>>

[bil]

 May I ask what town/village this happened in? Was it in New Hampshire? I am sorry to hear you were mistreated,to say the least. But I am encouraged to see some of us older folks still have the spirit to resist.While you admit to making mistakes,they were reasonable ones,dealing with cops and tasers in an alley is no fun,and the way they held your dog as a hostage is despicable.A new twist on 'sippenhaft'. Can't wait for part three!   ---bil

[Walker]

I'm not sure what video you watched about not talking to the police.  If it's the video of the lawyer talking to other lawyers about their clients, then I really would not use it as a baseline for situations like yours.  I believe that video is intended for a very narrow audience.

You said in your story that "And/or maybe I do not know what battles to fight and what battles to avoid."  If I may say, this battle was one to avoid at that particular time.  The real culprit was the meter maid, with the police as an accessory.  You were in a very difficult position because you had your dog with you.  This put you at a great disadvantage, and the police used it to their advantage.  If you are just visiting this town and don't know it day-to-day, that puts you at another disadvantage.  The third disadvantage was that the police are going to give a meter maid a huge benefit of doubt.

The problem was that the meter maid lied to the police.  The police took her word for it because maybe she was convincing, or maybe because her uncle is the police chief.  Either way, they are on the same side.  She could have claimed you pulled a knife on her, but you did not know the nature of her claim when the police approached you.  I don't mean to Monday morning quarterback, but your job at that point was to set the record straight.  A calm explanation from you would have exposed her lie.  A best case scenario would have been her embarrassment.

Don't get me wrong here, because the police did many things wrong in your case.  The trouble is that they were holding all the cards and you had none. 

I will say however, that it's nice to see someone question a government worker about the nature of her job.  The "I'm just doing my job" is often times code for "Give me a cushy job; I don't care."  People with that approach need to be held accountable and take responsibility for what they do.  They want a free pass by pointing the finger, but they are often part of the problem.  The fact that this meter maid said she'd rather give warnings rather than tickets means that she is not to comfortable with this law or its enforcement.  If these people are made to feel uncomfortable in their day-to-day job routine, perhaps they will rethink passing and enforcing laws like this one.

I don't know you personally, but you might gain a good result using psychology in this matter.  The woman overreacted.  You could probably make a good case establishing this fact.  Who, after all, calls the police on some guy walking his dog?!?  Who, after all, became uncomfortable answering simple questions about a new law that was passed?  I wish you well in this matter.   

   

[Nightrain1]

There are many battles to be fought, and I've learned that one should choose one's battles carefully. I believe in this case that you chose wisely. Some may say that such people as you and I have too much time on our hands. As a skilled Senior I've been denied work because of my age; thus, I have too much time on my hands. So, it is my/our right and duty to prevent authority from abusing their power and our citizens. I know they have a tough job, but many of the new laws have been wrongly put into place with very little consent from the citizens, who have lately been forced to ride in the back of the proverbial bus. So, I will use my time to put our basic God-given rights in the faces of those, who would ignore them. It may be true that the intention of authority is to protect each citizen; but who is to protect us from them? Perhaps, only us old guys, who have nothing to loose. Stay the course, and Bravo!   

[Russell Kanning]

boy they sure are a bunch of thugs in a big gang

i don't know what laws if any those guy would have followed.

If you would not have talked with any government workers that day, you probably would not have ended up in handcuffs.
If you lecture them, they do fight back. But if you don't stand up to them at all, then the tyranny gets worse.

What is your goal when you interact with cops?

[littlehawk]

My apologies for not continuing on about my run-in of last fall. It was a real nightmare and there was so much to write down I got lazy. And I have spent sooo much time trying to win this case.

Ok, heres a summary:

After 6 attempts to fight the system over various infractions from moving violations to criminal charges, I have always gotten my ass kicked. That all changed yesterday folks!

Yesterday at 1:30 I had my trial. And:

I FUCKING WON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I finally  beat the bastards at their own game. AND I did it by my fricken self. Yes I went Pro se'...and I kicked major fucking ass.  (sorry but I'm stoked)

I was charged with 2 criminal charges:

Disorderly Conduct. max fine: $1000 and/or 90 days in jail
Obstructing an investigation of a peace officer: max fine $1000 and/or 90 days in jail.
This had the potential if I was found guilty to incarcerate me for 180 days and 2000 dollars.

I scheduled a 6 person trial and I did all my own attorney work. (filed motions, filed discovery, gathered pictures, evidence etc. and  I wrote my opening statements and  all my questions on paper.) The hardest stuff is the cross examining and the closing arguement as that has to be done on-the-fly and you have to think on your feet as shit is happening fast).

The trial lasted 4 hours. The jury deliberated for 2 hours.
first charge 6-0 not guilty
second charge 5 not guilty 1 guilty... A HUNG JURY and immediately dismissed!

On center stage, I felt like Matlock but probably looked like Columbo to everyone else..or better yet a few times I felt like My Cousin Vinny, LOL!

After the judge read the verdicts, the jurors left. I am not a softee but I could not help but shed a few tears as finally I fought the law and  fucking won. During the jury deliberation I talked with the City Prosecuter for the entire time. She was nice, not a power tripper and we had an awesome discussion of the law, the sytems etc. She said I did "one hell of a job." We talked about what we both were thinking and how the trial went and it was all very enlightening. I have since then taken a different outlook on lawyers and people "in the system." Some maybe are not all that bad. They may be few but they are there. I spoke with her about freedom issues and tried to make her see things my way. She admitted the system is flawed and she admitted about rampant police corruption. I told her she could do more help if she focused on freedom issues, God given rights and Constitional Rights. Her answer "She'd be blackballed from the BAR Association."

So..the hung jury situation could have went 2 ways. It was up to the prosecuter to decide. She could either dismiss the charge or reschedule it for re-trail.If she chose a re-trial,  that means I would have to go through the whole mess all over again. The fact that her I chatted nicely with her beforehand maybe helped me as she decided to dismiss the case. Sweet!

It was 3 pricks cops as their witnesses. I had none. This was a Davey and Goliath story. Simply put, I made fools of all three cops. I kept the pricks sequestered as well. I charmed the jurors and the Judge gave me a lot of room to explore.. as well as educating the jury. ( 5th amend. right to remain silent which I later used, "my god given right to not answer"  <wink>

After 6 previous failures in courtrooms, I finally got it right. Those 6 losses make this one sweeter. I learned a lot and I also learned what I would avoid the next time and how I can improve upon a few things. I do hope to share a few things about the case when a get a bit more time as I am still recovering and celebrating. A major obstacle for me was bringing up the Bill of Rights. Whenever I tried to talk of the Constitution the Judge would intervene and then he started instructing the jury of things that were misleading. I think it was done to confuse them amd make it appear as if there were no Bill of Rights. As you know this was in a maritime setting anyways with that fucking fringed flag and eagle on top. (aka Martial Law). But I figured out a way around that as the case went on. heh heh. I do have some tidbits to share for anyone interestied. Even the jury selection process (which I had a hand in) was very strategic as well. Damm...  wished it was videoed. I should have flew in "man on the street" David Dada Ridley 

The police precinct was directly next store. After the trail, many of the cops kept coming over to see if the jurors reached a decision. When it was read 6 fucking cops were there to hear it. I let out a mother fucking woohoo that rattled the place. The judge got a lil pissed, LOL.


I wish I wish I wish I had someone that could have videotaped it. I plan to get the transcripts and if anyone is interested I will post them here and you can follow the entire process. I am not doing this to be boastful(well..err)  but only to be helpful. I must have done quite a few things right and in the heat of the battle I do not remember all that went down in the 6 hours. If I could, I'd like to get a audio recording of it too.

AND, I am not done yet, I plan to file complaints against the officers and meet with the chief of police and discuss their piss poor policies. Why?

Because I never want those same pricks to pull the same shit on someone else. I can't fight them all but I can take them on one at a time.

Honestly folks, I had pretty much given up on battling the monsters. They are good at beating you down. I am glad I gave it all I had and now that I won it has given me new life.

Don't stop fighting!

I can't tell you how fuckin happy I am. This rocks!

I. M. Afreeman aka Littlehawk

[John]

I've missed this thread before.

Congratulations!

Please - Nothing against what you accomplished! OK?
However, it is necessary for the courts to let people win once in a while so the gang can pretend that people stand a chance within the system.

They stole a bunch of your precious life from you.
I remember growing up and being told all about the Evil countries that did this sort of stuff.
Which country were you visiting when this happened?
The USSR? Red China? Hitler's Germany? Castro's Cuba? North Korea? ... Iraq? Iran?

You can and will obviously do what you want, but I wouldn't give them any more of my time - or more money for their evil transcripts and/or recordings. They'll just use that money to do bad stuff to people.

Again, congratulations.

[KBCraig]

Congratulations!

[Raineyrocks]

Wow, I am so happy you came out on top of this! 

What scumbags they were to treat you that way at all!

  How is your dog?  Did you have to pay to get him un-impounded, not sure if that's a word but you know what I mean. 

You Rock! 

[Free libertarian]

 Thanks for the update and good job.

[littlehawk]

Thanks John. you do raise a good point but this still was decided by jurors so I am not so sure if the Judge and Prosecuter conspired to let me win. Ya never know though. Thanks to the others.

I still plan to file complaints against the cops. I actually want to talk to the cop who was the band leader. Just a nice sit down and civil chat. (of course with a witness present).

I do know that I will not be in their crosshairs. Pigs don't like losing.   

[bwirth1999]

I wish I had read this before having our previous discussion with you.  I can understand why you would have a bad opinion of cops, as long as everything you have said is exactly as it happened,  they had no right to handcuff you.   However, I may have stopped whent he officer asked, but other than that I don't understand why they acted the way they did.