Stuff having nothing to do with John Connell arrested

[Becky Thatcher]

There, KB.  I edited my post to reflect that I'm not talking about a 17 and a 24 year old.  I'm talking about a 10 and a 19 year old...a 19 year old who was told a few times to CEASE AND DESIST IN HIS BEHAVIOR!!!!!!!

All this talk about age of consent law abuses in OTHER INSTANCES just muddies the waters here.  And I seriously doubt you and Mary would be very happy were Ethan to bring the cuddle party to your home!

[AntonLee]

Peace  and again I do appreciate the friendly convo here .. never get attacked at the underground.

I appreciate it as well.  While some get accused of being master debaters on an issue that is surely going to be seen as volatile in many different viewpoints. . . I can only simply state what I believe:  That government should not be a part of the decision making process for whom any person of any age is going to enter into agreements with.

While I DO NOT want to see 18 year olds getting arrested for 'stautory rape' for having sex with a 17 or 16 year old, I also do not want to see anyone getting put into a cage for choosing to not have sex with a 13 or 14 year old.  I'm not going to lie, there IS a line that people have for themselves and loved ones and they also have a line for other people's children as well.

While I state that there ARE 13 year olds fully capable of making decisions for themselves, I PERSONALLY would not like to see those children enter into an agreement or engage in sex with someone much older (19, 20, 27, 40, etc).  I have no right telling you how to teach your children, nor do I have a right using force to stop someone from engaging in sexual relations in which both parties have consented.   I DO have the right, as Kat and Russell did, to tell the entire world about behaviors they don't agree with and informing others as to those persons who have exhibited the behavior.  Allow those people to decide if they want to continue relations with that person.

I do not have kids, and if I did, I would most likely be a very overbearing parent when it comes to sex.  One of those fathers who thinks that his daughter won't have sex until she's married and/or son won't have sex until he's at least 16 (but we'll tell him only when he's capable of paying for a baby- because that works).  I can totally understand some of the parents' like Russell and Kat and Becky speaking of Ethan's behavior and seeming to be angry at those who they believe are condoning it.  As I stated, the line is different for different people, and I only attack that thought that states that a child is a child until they're 18 and then they're an adult, because government said so.

It should never be "because government said so"  My point is that is should always be "because the PARENT said so".  Others will go further than I and state that I don't have any right to order my children to not enter into agreements or sexual activity with those that I deem are "too old".  .and that's fine.  They don't (or won't rather) have my children, nor will they be putting a roof over their head, nor explainng what a period is, nor a clitoris, nor feeding them, nor being there when they get their first breakup.

CJS, most times for my own life, I can agree with you wholeheartedly, but disagree with how to encourage others to your (and my) prefereed behavior for others.  I don't want my kids heading out on their thirteenth birthday looking for a dick or a warm place to put it from someone who is 5, 10, 20 years their senior.  I also don't want that happening to other "children".   I want to encourage people to teach their children in a way that actually works and doesn't use force to stop them (since I believe that it only encourages them). 

[MaineShark]

I will also say that I do not disagree with much of what either of you said other than intimate relationships between adults and children should be allowed if the family thinks it's ok . There is just so much more to it . We would see 10 Y/O girls basically being sold for a dowry if that were allowed .

I can't speak for Anton, but I expect what he meant was that the family would be the most likely source of a complaint.

Morally, anyone can defend anyone else from aggression.  The family is just more likely to know about the relationship, and know the maturity of the young person in question.

I have said this before , I have had my mind / opinion changed about things I thought were cut in stone by the opinions shared here , but I do not think I will be changing my opinion about this specific issue . The simple truth is their are people who do unspeakable harm to young children and I think in any society there will be some measure taken to protect them .

There most certainly are.  The best measure is to demand restitution from those who actually do harm children.  If someone does, actually, molest a young child, we're talking damage that could impair that person's emotional development for an entire lifetime.  "But she said 'yes'" with a very young child (eg, 8-10) probably does more emotional damage than forcible rape of an adult.  If it happened to any of my children, I would likely encourage them to settle for nothing less than a fully-paid education (through graduate-level schooling) at top private schools.  I don't think anything less than that would really be of equal value to the damage done.

I just don't think there should be arbitrary numbers.  Each case should be examined based upon its own merits.  If no one was harmed, then there's no reason to hound someone for the rest of his/her life.  If someone did take advantage of a young child's immaturity in order to obtain a "consent" that really wasn't, he or she should pay dearly.

The esoteric arguments by master debaters about age of consent, blah blah blah, used to justify and make excuses for Ethan's behavior make my head hurt.

What thread are you reading?

Joe

[Becky Thatcher]

I appreciate it as well.  While some get accused of being master debaters on an issue that is surely going to be seen as volatile in many different viewpoints. . . I can only simply state what I believe:  That government should not be a part of the decision making process for whom any person of any age is going to enter into agreements with.

Anton, I made that accusation because I see this as a pretty black and white issue.  Because the issue in this thread isn't about government age of consent laws.  The issue in this thread is about Ethan's behavior...and how he was asked to stop and didn't and consequently was asked to leave, and then the larger community was informed of his predeliction for cuddling young boys against the expressed wishes of other adults in the household.

Then the master debaters (yes, I used the word, and no, I don't apologize for it) turned this thread into a anti-government, age of consent rant.  I don't recall the authorities being involved in any way.  Kat and Russell didn't call the cops, they didn't notify youth services, they didn't get anyone arrested or sent to jail.  They simply removed what they perceived as a threat from their home and notified members of the community why they did it.  And then they got to sit back and watch the professional talkers spin the issue so it's no longer about Ethan's bad behavior, but a screed against government abuses.  How original! 

[Lloyd Danforth]

My great grandfather was a 'Baiter' on a fishing ship and a Master in his union.

[MaineShark]

Anton, I made that accusation because I see this as a pretty black and white issue.  Because the issue in this thread isn't about government age of consent laws.  The issue in this thread is about Ethan's behavior...and how he was asked to stop and didn't and consequently was asked to leave, and then the larger community was informed of his predeliction for cuddling young boys against the expressed wishes of other adults in the household.

Then the master debaters (yes, I used the word, and no, I don't apologize for it) turned this thread into a anti-government, age of consent rant.  I don't recall the authorities being involved in any way.  Kat and Russell didn't call the cops, they didn't notify youth services, they didn't get anyone arrested or sent to jail.  They simply removed what they perceived as a threat from their home and notified members of the community why they did it.  And then they got to sit back and watch the professional talkers spin the issue so it's no longer about Ethan's bad behavior, but a screed against government abuses.  How original! 

CJS brought up age of consent, and we had a polite, adult discussion about it.

There have certainly been "screeds" and "rants" posted, but not one on that subject.  You're way out of line.

Joe

[KBCraig]

There, KB.  I edited my post to reflect that I'm not talking about a 17 and a 24 year old.  I'm talking about a 10 and a 19 year old...a 19 year old who was told a few times to CEASE AND DESIST IN HIS BEHAVIOR!!!!!!!

All this talk about age of consent law abuses in OTHER INSTANCES just muddies the waters here.  And I seriously doubt you and Mary would be very happy were Ethan to bring the cuddle party to your home!

I wasn't posting that link in response to you, it just happened fall right after your post. I was posting because there had been discussion about age of consent, and that story just happened to show up in my news feed today. I found it ironic that the law says he could have sex with her, but not have any nude photos of her.

You're absolutely correct that we wouldn't welcome Ethan's reported behavior in our home, nor Ethan himself if we had reason to believe he acted like that. I'm pretty sure we'd handle it pretty much like Kat and Russell did, although Mary might do more than just wave a club at him.

[AntonLee]

I appreciate it as well.  While some get accused of being master debaters on an issue that is surely going to be seen as volatile in many different viewpoints. . . I can only simply state what I believe:  That government should not be a part of the decision making process for whom any person of any age is going to enter into agreements with.

Anton, I made that accusation because I see this as a pretty black and white issue.  Because the issue in this thread isn't about government age of consent laws.  The issue in this thread is about Ethan's behavior...and how he was asked to stop and didn't and consequently was asked to leave, and then the larger community was informed of his predeliction for cuddling young boys against the expressed wishes of other adults in the household.

Then the master debaters (yes, I used the word, and no, I don't apologize for it) turned this thread into a anti-government, age of consent rant.  I don't recall the authorities being involved in any way.  Kat and Russell didn't call the cops, they didn't notify youth services, they didn't get anyone arrested or sent to jail.  They simply removed what they perceived as a threat from their home and notified members of the community why they did it.  And then they got to sit back and watch the professional talkers spin the issue so it's no longer about Ethan's bad behavior, but a screed against government abuses.  How original! 

Nor should you apologize.  Nor will I choose to apologize for changing the subject on the internets.  As Joe said, he and I were responding to CJS and I don't think it's out of line to talk about government or age of consent laws on a forum like NHFree.com.  We've talked before, and I hardly think anyone could call me a professional talker.  I'm pretty sure I can still speak my opinion on this internet forum until the owners decide to tell me that it would be against the rules. 

As I've already said, I don't really think they did the wrong thing by removing him from their home.  To me, the issue is over with as he is no longer near the kids in question and the word has been spread far and wide judging by how I've heard it from numerous people.  I was even AT hoyt farm the day that the word was starting to spread and expressed my own opinion on it to Kat, Russell, and John.  I take ever opportunity to continue to say how stupid I think age of consent laws are and welcome anyone to ignore me if they have a problem with my opinion.  Better yet, give me YOUR opinions on it and perhaps I'll learn something and perhaps change my mind.

master debater professional talker signing off