Jay Boucher assaulted me

[Mike Barskey]

Jay Boucher physically assaulted me yesterday. Details are in the video.

Jay Boucher assaulted me

I'm posting this as ostracism. I think people he deals with should know how he behaves and should decide to act accordingly with him.

[Kat Kanning]

The Boucher of Grafton 

[shyfrog]

This poster does not have an NHUnderground account, so I'll post the link here

http://www.graftonforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=83.0

[Kat Kanning]

Jay has an account here...was that what you meant?

[Russell Kanning]

how ugly

[AntonLee]

it's justified.  It's also justifed to shoot little girls picking flowers after being told not to.  One does not have to like the use of violence.  Mike seemed like he was there to retrieve property that was his.  I would have left, and if my forms weren't back I would have come back with lots of people to retrieve them.

Does the property owner grant Mike permission to return to the property or was that revoked.  Does the property 'manager' have more right to remove someone from the property even if the property owner gives his blessing?  I've been to the mancave a few times, no one ever granted me permission but I was with others whom I assumed had plenty of permission.  I've never met Bob Hull but I think I'd like him and would hope he would grant me permission to be on his property.  If Jay told me I wasn't allowed would I have to leave or would Bob's permission trump the manager?

If the manager struck me out of anger while I had permission from the owner to be there, I would probably be due some sort of reparations.

I hear about this "utah" incident.  Am I to assume that this is some incident involving the property of Lou Eastman and his (ex?) wife who is now with Mike?  That's a tougher situation, since both might own the shared property.  One says 'no' and the other says 'yes'.   If it were me, I would just be the bigger man and not go there and cause a problem.

I'm not sure, but I'm a bit more worried to ever go the mancave again, I don't want to be shoved around or worse.

[shyfrog]

@Kat I was talking about one of the posts from one of the witnesses there who does not have an account here. (edit: I assumed Bill posted that. He did not. My mistake.)

@Anton Lee, you're right, it was completely justified. Mike isn't a little girl and should know better to leave when asked to do so the first time.
A little girl is truly innocent if they are ignorant of property rights. Mike is not ignorant of property rights. Or maybe he doesn't understand them properly. I doubt the latter given that he is so adamant about HIS property rights. You can't disregard others property rights and expect yours to be respected. It just doesn't work that way!

Yes, the Utah incident is in reference to my property rights being violated and this shows Mike's disregard of requests to vacate in a completely different circumstance now captured on video.

Mike posts about "talking, asking, and listening" in his last post on Grafton Forum. Yet, I have to wonder if he went to his site to check if his property was back or missing (confirmation of fact)? Or if he "talked" to or "asked" anyone at his site to see if the property was returned (third-party confirmation of fact) before going to Jay's work site to escalate and add provocation to the situation based on an assumption or ignorance of the facts? Once at Jay's work site, did he "listen" to the request for him to vacate the property? From the evidence shown, he did none of the above until it was far too late.

Jay was justified and Mike should have backed away from the situation and reassessed before poking, prodding and otherwise aggravating an already volatile situation.

I think some here have missed the point completely.

[shyfrog]

This one is from a post on YouTube from ivyleague28477:

"@antonlee43 Bob Hull understood that he owned the concrete forms, not Ofer. If Ofer sold the forms to Mike when Bob owns them, then Mike has a problem with Ofer. Jay retrieved the forms on Bob's say-so. When it came to light that there was ANY controversy, the forms were IMMEDIATELY returned until the dispute over ownership could be resolved. Mike didn't even bother to check and see if the forms were returned before hunting Jay down."

[Russell Kanning]

how can you be sure Jay was justified? Does Jay have property rights in this situation? Does it justify small amounts of force?
did Mike walk into Jay's front room and start pestering him?

[shyfrog]

Do you have property rights on Hoyt?

[shyfrog]

Also from YouTube with regards to Anton's question about the Utah situation:

ivyleague28477

@antonlee43 Hi Anton. Yes. And again - Mike chose defiance based on a technicality (that there was more than one person who may have been authorized to give him permission), rather than to respect and honor the wishes of one of the property owners.

If someone choses to be nitpicky in order to weasel their way out of doing the admirable, honorable thing, is that someone you would want to hang out with??

[Russell Kanning]

Do you have property rights on Hoyt?

no
but that is kinda a trick answer, since I don't really think I have any property rights to anything
I guess I figure some things are mine, but i don't use force to keep people from taking things from me.
I have had all my stuph taken from me in the past by my ex-wife and a few times the government has taken my stuph and my physical liberty to move around. Those experiences have taught me that I don't actually have control over anything. I just choose to help decent folks and choose not to cooperate with others.

In this situation most of the time i cooperate with Mike and most of the time i do not cooperate with Jay. Jay usually seems to be working at cross purposes to me, so I do not help him. I wish even my enemies well, but I don't cooperate with their bad behavior.
Some people are willing to make uneasy political alliances, but I am not.

[shyfrog]

Do you have property rights on Hoyt?

no
but that is kinda a trick answer, since I don't really think I have any property rights to anything
I guess I figure some things are mine, but i don't use force to keep people from taking things from me.
I have had all my stuph taken from me in the past by my ex-wife and a few times the government has taken my stuph and my physical liberty to move around. Those experiences have taught me that I don't actually have control over anything. I just choose to help decent folks and choose not to cooperate with others.

In this situation most of the time i cooperate with Mike and most of the time i do not cooperate with Jay. Jay usually seems to be working at cross purposes to me, so I do not help him. I wish even my enemies well, but I don't cooperate with their bad behavior.
Some people are willing to make uneasy political alliances, but I am not.

Well, we have something in common then. I do not cooperate with people who have shown themselves to be dishonorable. Perhaps we define bad behavior differently? 

edit: I will cooperate with someone who has been dishonorable with me in the past if they do the honorable thing, like own up to their responsibility and do everything in their power to make it right again. I would call it repentance...but there are far too many atheists around here for that.

[AntonLee]

This one is from a post on YouTube from ivyleague28477:

"@antonlee43 Bob Hull understood that he owned the concrete forms, not Ofer. If Ofer sold the forms to Mike when Bob owns them, then Mike has a problem with Ofer. Jay retrieved the forms on Bob's say-so. When it came to? light that there was ANY controversy, the forms were IMMEDIATELY returned until the dispute over ownership could be resolved. Mike didn't even bother to check and see if the forms were returned before hunting Jay down."

interesting, has it been determined as of yet as to who actually owns these?  In other words, Bob says they belong to him; Barskey says they belong to him.  I don't know Ofer from a hole in the wall, but he seems like a good guy who wouldn't sell property that belongs to someone else.  Could there have been a miscommunication between Bob and Ofer as to who owned the forms? 

This has taught people a lesson, including myself.  If you're asked to leave property that doesn't belong to you, no sense in attempting at that point to garner information on who the owners are, you're liable to get someone pushing and shoving (or hitting) you, you might even get shot.  Not worth it to me.

thanks for the info Lou.  I'm going to jump out of this before someone takes offense to something I say.  I like Barskey, Lou, Ivy, Russell and Kat pretty much equally.  It's a shame that a situation has escalated to violence as it has.

[shyfrog]

This has taught people a lesson, including myself.  If you're asked to leave property that doesn't belong to you, no sense in attempting at that point to garner information on who the owners are, you're liable to get someone pushing and shoving (or hitting) you, you might even get shot.  Not worth it to me.

thanks for the info Lou.  I'm going to jump out of this before someone takes offense to something I say.  I like Barskey, Lou, Ivy, Russell and Kat pretty much equally.  It's a shame that a situation has escalated to violence as it has.

This!

It is a shame that it escalated. Perhaps, like others have said, this will lead to better behavior, neighborly discussion, and common sense.

edit: fixed typo