Re: I lost round one with the thugs

[Ed]

I once imagined how a libertarian city might work

From the ground up it would all be done by contracts. CC&R - covenants, conditions, and restrictions, and a HOA. Like with Houston's lack of zoning, or just condos or townhouses in the rest of the county.

To maintain a road system, just like it already is now with HOA's everyone pays dues that they contracted into. Ditto other utilities/drainage/etc. Of course, just like with condos the bigger/more expensive/more resource-drawing units would have to pay more.
Issues with how the shared property areas are used and restrictions thereon could be handled by vote. Or to make it even faster, by voting for a representative who has the capacity to make policies - again, like it is already done now with buildings and HOA's.

And in the unfortunate situation where someone is unable to pay the dues they contracted into, there could be a 2-year period after placing a lien on his unit before it is forcibly sold to recover the lost dues.


And then I realized that all that is literally exactly like a town and its taxes and policies, and involves exactlky the same amount of "force" or "aggression" and libertarians shouldn't gripe about stuff that they absolutely would support if it just had a different name.

[Free libertarian]

^^^ Hello Ed.   I read your scenario above.  I think you miss one important element.  Government doesn't permit a person to voluntarily participate or not.  For instance you have little choice in how the money extorted from you is spent.  If you don't beleive in killing innocent people, too bad, your money goes towards that.  If you don't support public schools, too bad again.   I could go on at length, but maybe others will offer their insight. 

I'd encourage you to reconsider your analysis from another point of view, you'll likely reach a different conclusion. 

[Free libertarian]

if municipal governments only took care of roads, drainage, and other land improvement but not schools, you'd still be complaining - when clearly it would be just as "voluntary" as an HOA. Payment of the "tax" or "dues" is tied to ownership in real estate within the jurisdiction or HOA, and if you don't pay, they put a lien on your house and eventually force a sale of it.

Libertarian fail

Ed,  thanks for providing your point of view.  I'm getting the drift that you aren't down with voluntary and consensual interactions.  There are two ways to apprach this, one is from a morality basis and the other from a utility basis.

From a morality basis, forcing people to do something or pay for something is wrong if you or I do it
to a person if that person isn't harming us, agreed?  Isn't it just as wrong if two or more people do this, use force against a peaceful person? How about if 3 or 4 or 50 or 1,000 people do this? Isn't it just as wrong? 

From a utility basis, if people all pitched in that sure sounds wonderful...how do you propose to make this happen in an equitable way?  By granting a third party jurisdiction over this to MAKE people comply or by allowing individuals to contract amongst themselves based on what THEY value and what THEY use? 

It seems you are seeking ways to justify your position by saying what "they" will do if a person fails to comply.  Well you're right, you don't own your property as long as a lien exists that you did not agree to have placed on it. 

Do you endorse that the most powerful person or group (government, gang or simple majority) by virtue of superior force can somehow evolve from a position of oppressor to one of moral correctness simply because the "sevices" they provide might in some way be beneficial?  Using that logic, I should raid your kitchen cabinets and replace your junk food with only food that I approve of.
I should get your ass out of bed and start making you do jumping jacks to lose your paunch...hey it's for your own good y'know.  Then I will leave you a bill for my "services" as your personal trainer and beat you up or steal your house if you don't pay me.  What am I missing? 

By the way we start jumping jacks tomorrow at 4:00 am and I get $100 an hour.

[Ed]

i was just driving on a potholed bumpy road yesterday .... and wondered where this wonderful government was that gave us roads
they seemed to have failed the people that lived on that street .... they pay property taxes but don't get a decent road .... and they can't just call up a different company and order a new road with their tax money


I could find a few examples of driveways in subdivisions or the parking lots of buildings that have potholes

And neither can people with the private version of maintenance and roads call up a different company and have their money go to them instead and try that next guy out - the voted representative can do that. Though maybe you might be able to vote him out - but like in a town, it's a maybe.

you ever had to fly all the way down to Florida when you want to rent out a condo you own just because the condo board is made up of a bunch of old retirees who've got nothing better to do and want to "see you" before they "agree to let you" rent out your condo? Yeah... a municipal government by itself itsn't that bad, and yet if someone did manage to stop funding public schools and other unnecessary stuff through property taxes (other than roads and land improvment and maintenance), you'd still be bitching

[Ed]

@FL

reading comprehension fail.

Read it all again

sans poperty taxes going to public schools, your typical HOA involves just as much "force" as any municipal government. They are literally almost exactly the same except for the terminology. The payments, be they taxes or HOA fees, run with ownership of the property, and the collection thereof is enforced through liens. Your actual say in what happens with the common property and your mone is also the same - both done through republic-voting

also, as per your post, tl;dr

[Lloyd Danforth]

When I first saw these things called 'Condominiums'  I thought to myself, "Who'd be stupid enough to buy into this?"

[Free libertarian]

@FL

reading comprehension fail.

Read it all again

sans poperty taxes going to public schools, your typical HOA involves just as much "force" as any municipal government. They are literally almost exactly the same except for the terminology. The payments, be they taxes or HOA fees, run with ownership of the property, and the collection thereof is enforced through liens. Your actual say in what happens with the common property and your mone is also the same - both done through republic-voting

also, as per your post, tl;dr

Nope.  The difference you conveniently disregard is the INITIATION force.  With your government, there is no practical opt out or opt in.  A homewners association can't act without your consent, gvernments can and do.   

[Ed]

dude OMG what don't you understand about this, yes they CAN

there is no opt out from an HOA either - if you hold the title, you've got to pay the dues
it's literally the SAME situation - payment is tied to ownership, and enforced through liens. Decisions are made through republic-style voting for representatives, or sometimes through direct democracy voting

[John]

Oh the roads. I forgot to mention the precious roads. But this may deserve its own thread.

I would prefer to get the governments off of the roads first.
There is no other place where they control us more than on "the king's highways."

[John]

The Roads thread: http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=22155.0

[Free libertarian]

dude OMG what don't you understand about this, yes they CAN

there is no opt out from an HOA either - if you hold the title, you've got to pay the dues
it's literally the SAME situation - payment is tied to ownership, and enforced through liens. Decisions are made through republic-style voting for representatives, or sometimes through direct democracy voting

You're almost there.  You aren't FORCED to opt into an HOA, like in a government situation, where ALL are subject.  The government opts you in whether you want to or not.

Anyhow, back to MY point.  Giving examples where a private company or association holds you to rules where a person has opportunity to agree to or not participate is not the same as what government does. 

My aplogies if I've not understood or acknowledged your point, but you are certainly avoiding mine.

Government and HOA's have similar characteristics, but in one YOU opt yourself in, in the other that choice does not exist.

[Ed]

yeah, right, because the frequently repeated libertarian alternative of ubiquitous toll roads is WAY better - my normal 20 minute drive turning into 30 minutes

or how about privately owned roads? Yeah right, 'cause one individual landowner controlling everybody's way of getting around with the full power of a private landowner totally represents more freedom for everyone else 
Yeah, take what I can already use at will for walking and biking, and what EVERYBODY is ENTITLED to use once they get a license, and give it over to some assholes who could tell me I can't use it because they don't like me or they don't like my skin color or religion.
Hell, I once read a libertarian say there is no such thing as "public property" Complete nonsense.
None of these things would represent more actual freedom for anyone.
As many laws as there are against loitering, begging, etc. The Gov. can't ban you from the roads. You could get arrested 50 times for public-right-of-way related infractions, and they still could not ban you from the road. Good luck getting that with privately owned land/roads.

Best proposal I heard is that landowners would pay for maintenance, and if necessary could place traffic counters (which work automatically). Actually a reasonable proposal, but then, again, it would just be like an HOA, and effectively the same as the tax system.
Also, road "companies" or landowners could sell the right to use their easements to utlities companies for laying their lines - my own personal invention I came up with dealing with construction and real estate. Never heard a libertarian think of that one, know why? because they babble about things they don't know about, hence the stupid ideas.

[Ed]

that's nonsense - the opt-in opt-out option is the same with both HOA's and a municipal government. Opting out is selling your house/unit, or not buying it in the first place.
You do NOT have the option of agreeing to participate and follow the rules in an HOA, if you want to keep your house. People have been fined hundreds by HOA's simply for using clotheslines to dry their clothes, others have lost their house because they refuse to mow their lawn.

In theory there was an initiation of force when a municipality first levied realty taxes - but that is irrelevant for the vast majority of landowners who came AGES later. The two systems are the same to modern purchasers. In both situations, if I want to continue to own real estate, I am forced to pay money. Whether you call it "taxes" or call it "dues" makes no real difference from the "force" aspect of it.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Also, road "companies" or landowners could sell the right to use their easements to utlities companies for laying their lines - my own personal invention I came up with dealing with construction and real estate. Never heard a libertarian think of that one, know why? because they babble about things they don't know about, hence the stupid ideas.

Yes, I'm sure you think you invented it.
You are dismally ignorant of  more than 50 years of  libertarin ideas concerning replacing government.   You need to do some reading. You referred to us as a 'bunch' of something or other in a post I deleted, because you were losing an argument with one individual. That makes you a Clown in my book.  You've apparently owned condominiums and property contained in 'associations'. That makes you look pretty stupid. Others here may continue to respond to your gibberish, but I won't.

[Russell Kanning]

I could find a few examples of driveways in subdivisions or the parking lots of buildings that have potholes

i believe you
i guess you could complain to the owners or not shop there anymore
my driveway has no potholes and is usually plowed better than the streets and highways owned by the king .... i had to pay for it myself, but I also got to make the choices
in our mobile home park in Keene it was very normal to drive on nicely plowed roads until i hit the city streets