J. Neil Shulman to be at Porcfest?

[CurtHowland]

During Taproom Tuesday, PorcFest came up, and I mentioned that I thought J. Neil Shulman being there was rather surprising due to his take on what happened last year with the Shire Society declaration.

Anyway, for anyone who might be interested, here is the "guest editorial" by L. Neil Smith which was posted by Mr. Shulman, and defended by him, to which I refer:

http://jneilschulman.rationalreview.com/2010/07/guest-editorial-by-l-neil-smith-little-criminals-the-context-of-consent/

An illustrative quote from Mr. Shulman's defense of "Little Criminals":

"To make a copy of something which is owned by someone else without the owner's consent is just as much a violation of rights as having sex with someone without their consent, or sleeping in their bed without their consent, or taking a ride in their bus without their consent, or using their time share without their consent. All these things are nothing more than taking action with respect to someone else's property without their consent."

[MaineShark]

Yeah, that's a rather insane position to take.

"Ignoring my attempts to use government force to establish privileges is the same as stealing property."

Hint: there are no positive rights.  Schulman and Smith should go join the "welfare is a human right" folks and have done with it.  Not one iota difference between what they're claiming, and what any other socialists go around demanding.

Or, to use his example, supporting copyright is like asking the government to order others to have sex with you, whether they want to or not.   He wants to use force to dictate what others can do with their property.

Joe

[Russell Kanning]

I thought a copyright debate at porcfest would be a bare knuckle brawl. Maybe they invited him.

although you posting something making fun of him is against his rights.

[CurtHowland]

although you posting something making fun of him is against his rights.

I don't mean to make fun of him. I hope to find a way to reconcile it all, actually. I have enjoyed both Smith's and Shulman's works greatly, and consider this battle to be the most absurd waste of time the advocates of liberty could be involved in.

Harry Browne used to say, arguing about the last 10% of govt is a waste of time. When we have abolished the 90%, then we can rent a stadium and argue about the rest of it.

[MaineShark]

Indeed.  Particularly when they almost immediately took it to the realm of making threats of violence.

Joe

[Russell Kanning]

i have patented the reconciliation process, so I will expect some payments when you try

[CurtHowland]

i have patented the reconciliation process, so I will expect some payments when you try

I'm surprised that otherwise intelligent people can completely miss how so-called "intellectual property" does exactly what you are parodying here.

[MaineShark]

i have patented the reconciliation process, so I will expect some payments when you try

I'm surprised that otherwise intelligent people can completely miss how so-called "intellectual property" does exactly what you are parodying here.

Because they are not rational... they are rationalizing...

They don't start from principles, and derive their beliefs; they believe what they believe, and look for any convenient "principles" that will support what they believe at the given moment.

Joe

[Giggan]

Is Schulman coming to PorcFest? He's not on the speakers page.

http://porcfest.com/events/speakers

[Russell Kanning]

maybe he is not allowed to speak
curtis has exclusive rights to the sound waves at porcfest

[Pat K]

Ya see now that there, right up above, that's funny.

[Russell Kanning]

it would definitely lead endless funny conversations

differences between me and other people are not big deals until they start using force get their way

some of these "libertarian" writers are kinda funny with their threats unless they back them up with guns and thugs

it kindof reminds me of conversations you have with cops .... they love to reason with you after they have you handcuffed and in their cars or jails .... i like to gangle my chains and ask them if this is their preferred method of small talk

[dalebert]

An illustrative quote from Mr. Shulman's defense of "Little Criminals":

"To make a copy of something which is owned by someone else without the owner's consent is just as much a violation of rights as having sex with someone without their consent, or sleeping in their bed without their consent, or taking a ride in their bus without their consent, or using their time share without their consent. All these things are nothing more than taking action with respect to someone else's property without their consent."

He keeps comparing something that doesn't cause harm (copying) with things that clearly do.

*ARGUMENT FAIL*

Copying Is Not Theft - Official Version

[CurtHowland]

some of these "libertarian" writers are kinda funny with their threats unless they back them up with guns and thugs

I will give the pro-IP "libertarians" a positive spin at this point. They portray themselves as believing that in honest 3rd party private adjudication they would be found the owners of the words on the page and thus only licensing the reading of those words to the readers, and anyone who uses those words without permission is therefore a thief.

My disagreement with them is that I believe such "ownership" is artificial, promoted and sustained only by govt intervention, and that without an explicit contract signed by every single reader there is no implied contract to, for example, no one can ever use the two words "atlas shrugged" together since someone supposedly "owns" that.

It's a fascinating argument, and I would love to see how it played out without govt intervention.

[Tom Sawyer]

If in order to open a movie or other electronic media you had to click through a contract/licensing agreement... I wonder how this argument would play out?