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Author Topic: DROs vs States  (Read 1292 times)

Lex

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Re: DROs vs States
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2011, 12:53 PM NHFT »

No, that's the current model.  If I start a protection agency, the cops will murder me.  No ifs, ands, or buts about that one.  Starting a protection agency to compete with the State's official enforcers carries a guaranteed death sentence.

Anything less than that is an improvement.

Private armies and private security exist today.

Private ambulances and private fire departments also exist today.

I think you're over exaggerating your point. Let's not be silly ;-)


The roads already exist.  What, are they going to buy every road into town?  Let's not be silly.  If you buy one major road, the price is going to be substantial.  As soon as you try to buy another, the price will go up (supply and demand).  Since the demand for the last road into town is obviously high (given that you've been buying up the rest of that item) and the supply is low (it's the last one left), the price will be astronomical.

They only have to buy the major road. Or, how about this, a major bridge if a city is split by a river. My point was not that they will have a complete monopoly on roads or bridges, just that it would be very inconvenient for people to have to avoid the particular road or bridge. If paying $50 a month for Company X will allow you to use the major road that gets you to work in 20 minutes or pay another company with better standards or protection service $40 but have to drive on another road it takes 40 minutes to get to work. A wealthy person may just subscribe to both agencies one they will use for the actual protection and the other just for road access. But a lot of people will chose Company X purely for the time savings of using their road.

This is somewhat analogous to the smart phone industry. Look at how many people switch to AT&T which is arguably a much crappier cell service just because they wanted the iPhone. People make compromises all the time to reflect their desires.

A shady protection company could acquire some resources that everyone wants and then require people to subscribe to their protection service in order to use that resource.

The problem I see is that in the case of cellphones it's not the end of the world if you drop your call or get really crap reception but when it comes to protection services: You're paying someone to use violence on your behalf... or someday even against you.

My point is that government isn't that much different from a protection service that manages to gain or maintain "sole service provider" status by using it's own tools of violence.

So, what you're saying is that, absolute worst-case scenario, private protection agencies are less than perfect, but are about a million times betterthan the best-case for Statism?  I think I can live with an imperfect world having imperfections in it.  C'est la vie.  The important thing is to make it the best possible world.  And any honest comparison (ie, none of this double-standard nonsense) says that private is better in every measurable way.

I didn't say it was just an "absolute worst-case scenario". I'm thinking that it could be a common scenario.

The purpose of my original post is to discuss these "million" reasons why a protection agency is better than a government.

Philosophically I agree that government doesn't compute, but practically speaking is the protection service idea that's currently understood a better alternative? I would like to discuss the practical implications of DROs vs States.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 12:56 PM NHFT by Lex Berezhny »
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MaineShark

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Re: DROs vs States
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2011, 03:31 PM NHFT »

Private armies and private security exist today.

Private ambulances and private fire departments also exist today.

I think you're over exaggerating your point. Let's not be silly ;-)

No, I'm actually downplaying my point.  They'll probably murder my family, attack and/or murder my friends, steal loads of property, etc.

But, by all means, start up a protection agency and, when some goon with a badge shows up to kidnap someone you've been hired to protect, you go ahead and tell him, "no," and see what happens...

They only have to buy the major road. Or, how about this, a major bridge if a city is split by a river. My point was not that they will have a complete monopoly on roads or bridges, just that it would be very inconvenient for people to have to avoid the particular road or bridge. If paying $50 a month for Company X will allow you to use the major road that gets you to work in 20 minutes or pay another company with better standards or protection service $40 but have to drive on another road it takes 40 minutes to get to work. A wealthy person may just subscribe to both agencies one they will use for the actual protection and the other just for road access. But a lot of people will chose Company X purely for the time savings of using their road.

Wait, now they won't have a monopoly, but they'll just have convenience to offer?  How is that a problem?  Folks pay for convenience, all the time.

But it's unlikely they could get the owners of a given road or bridge to sell.  Why would they?  What benefit would they possibly derive from selling something they use, to someone who is going to charge them to access it?

This is somewhat analogous to the smart phone industry. Look at how many people switch to AT&T which is arguably a much crappier cell service just because they wanted the iPhone. People make compromises all the time to reflect their desires.

Yeah, it's horrible when folks exercise their freedom to make their own choices...

A shady protection company could acquire some resources that everyone wants and then require people to subscribe to their protection service in order to use that resource.

Really?  How?  I mean, without government to steal it for them...

My point is that government isn't that much different from a protection service that manages to gain or maintain "sole service provider" status by using it's own tools of violence.

Your point fails.  You have not established it with any sort of evidence, at all.  Every argument you've raised has been refuted.

I didn't say it was just an "absolute worst-case scenario". I'm thinking that it could be a common scenario.

No, what you described is pretty much the worst case that can exist in a private system.  It would require an extremely complex series of events in which nearly everyone failed to act in their own rational interest.

The purpose of my original post is to discuss these "million" reasons why a protection agency is better than a government.

Philosophically I agree that government doesn't compute, but practically speaking is the protection service idea that's currently understood a better alternative? I would like to discuss the practical implications of DROs vs States.

Your question was already addressed.  The worst case you can come up with, is better than the best-case that your monopoly government offers.

Joe
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gibson042

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Re: DROs vs States
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2011, 03:54 PM NHFT »

Business are always trying to get more customers or maintain their customer base and when the business is also the provider of force, it's very hard to believe that they will avoid using their expertise in force to maintain their power. I think they will do it judiciously to keep good PR but I don't think they will avoid it completely. Even if they do it once in their life time, that is enough to not think of them as functioning under the same principles as a Walmart.

Since you are interested in practical implications, I think it's worth noting that the "expertise in force" likely doesn't amount to much. For example, my household will have small arms for personal defense, an insurance provider (against theft, vandalism, injury, accidents, natural disasters, etc.), a neighborhood watch membership (possibly affiliated with a larger-scale militia in case of foreign invasion), and an alarm system to alert on-duty responders in case of incident. Where in this mix do you see the biggest risk of incipient statehood?
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Lex

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Re: DROs vs States
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2011, 04:51 PM NHFT »

No, what you described is pretty much the worst case that can exist in a private system.  It would require an extremely complex series of events in which nearly everyone failed to act in their own rational interest.

People fail to act in their own rational self interest all the time. Which is why I maintain that the worst case scenario would be much more common than you hope.

The same people that complacently allow government to get big will allow businesses to become entrenched "sole service providers".

Again, I don't see how privatizing the use of force will be any different from government force given that people will still be people, with faults and all.
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Lex

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Re: DROs vs States
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2011, 04:58 PM NHFT »

Since you are interested in practical implications, I think it's worth noting that the "expertise in force" likely doesn't amount to much. For example, my household will have small arms for personal defense, an insurance provider (against theft, vandalism, injury, accidents, natural disasters, etc.), a neighborhood watch membership (possibly affiliated with a larger-scale militia in case of foreign invasion), and an alarm system to alert on-duty responders in case of incident. Where in this mix do you see the biggest risk of incipient statehood?

I think there is quite a big difference between what you describe and a Blackwater like firm.

You have a life and other occupations beyond the firearm hobby and maintaining an alarm system.

A business which has paid employees on the clock prepared to carry out violence against aggressors 24/7 is a whole different thing.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 05:00 PM NHFT by Lex Berezhny »
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gibson042

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Re: DROs vs States
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2011, 05:23 PM NHFT »

A business which has paid employees on the clock prepared to carry out violence against aggressors 24/7 is a whole different thing.

What is the target market for such a business? Almost all of the aggression in society is perpetrated by the state, and (as I've pointed out, at least for myself) the remainder can be handled with little more than watchfulness. How much business do you expect there to be for bounty hunters and high-profile bodyguards? How many serial killers and rapists are you worried about?

I don't foresee any need for that kind of organization in my life. Do you?
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Lex

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Re: DROs vs States
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2011, 05:46 PM NHFT »

What is the target market for such a business? Almost all of the aggression in society is perpetrated by the state, and (as I've pointed out, at least for myself) the remainder can be handled with little more than watchfulness. How much business do you expect there to be for bounty hunters and high-profile bodyguards? How many serial killers and rapists are you worried about?

I don't foresee any need for that kind of organization in my life. Do you?

To start with:

"estimated 600,000 to 820,000 men, women, and children [are] trafficked across international borders each year, approximately 80% are women and girls and up to 50 percent are minors. The data also illustrates that the majority of transnational victims are trafficked into commercial sexual exploitation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking#Global_extent.2C_awareness_and_response

And of course the usual stuff like murders, robberies, rape, gang violence, etc.
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MaineShark

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Re: DROs vs States
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2011, 05:54 PM NHFT »

People fail to act in their own rational self interest all the time. Which is why I maintain that the worst case scenario would be much more common than you hope.

No, it's actually quite rare.  If they did it "all the time," humanity would have gone extinct, long ago.

The same people that complacently allow government to get big will allow businesses to become entrenched "sole service providers".

You're presenting the worst possible case.  Which is still better than the best-case scenario with Statism.

Again, I don't see how privatizing the use of force will be any different from government force given that people will still be people, with faults and all.

Again, you clearly either lack the ability to comprehend what is being discussed, or are simply unwilling to accept that you've been supporting a horrible, corrupt system all this time.  Your questions were addressed.

I think there is quite a big difference between what you describe and a Blackwater like firm.

Yup.  I'm fighting to protect myself.  They're fighting for money.  Who's more motivated?

You have a life and other occupations beyond the firearm hobby and maintaining an alarm system.

A business which has paid employees on the clock prepared to carry out violence against aggressors 24/7 is a whole different thing.

Like the police?  Who are so blindingly incompetent that I can take someone who's never touched a gun before, and have her shooting better than 99% of cops, in a single, one-day class?

Joe
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Lex

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Re: DROs vs States
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2011, 06:29 PM NHFT »

This article convinced me back into the anarchy camp:

http://mises.org/journals/scholar/hasnas.pdf

I'm going to lock the topic as I think that pretty much covers all of my questions.
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