Congress Helps Self to $3,100 Pay Raise

[Ron Helwig]

How does the liberty dollar solve the problem?  It would solve the problem for those who use it, but not for America at large.  What good are several thousand people using real currency if society collapses around them because of unsustainable economics?

Well, you've got to start somewhere.

Frankly, I don't give a damn about "America at large". I care about freedom. Freedom is more important than any government. Also frankly, the people who have kept their eyes shut while the country has gone to hell deserve what they will get (not that I won't try to help when I can).

I see the Liberty Dollar as the route to get to a better system. The long term goal is to stop using fake units like "dollars" and instead use physical quantities like ounces or grams. Hell, even using "troy" bothers me (seems like playing with definitions). However, only the very enlightened will be currently willing to do that, so we need a way to convert the system incrementally. That's where the Liberty Dollar comes in - it allows people to use both systems simultaneously, educating them on the benefits of the precious metals while protecting them from the inherent inflation of the debt-based FRNs.

Besides, several thousand people not being totally screwed come the collapse would be better than none.

[Caleb]

I'm no fan of the Liberty dollar myself.  It seems to me, though, that if you're holding any silver or gold when the economy collapses, you will do well.  Precious metals will be in high demand, thus their value will be much more than ordinary.  You're right, it won't necessarily help those who don't have the gold or silver, but it sure as hell will beat holding on to worthless pieces of paper backed by the "full faith and credit of the U.S. government".

Caleb

[Incrementalist]

Frankly, I don't give a damn about "America at large".

Well you'd best start, because things aren't going to be pretty if our economy collapses, no matter how well we "prepare".

I care about freedom. Freedom is more important than any government. Also frankly, the people who have kept their eyes shut while the country has gone to hell deserve what they will get (not that I won't try to help when I can).

Reversion of America to a banana republic is not going to be good for any of us, even those of us who are "independent" and capable of standing on our own two feet.  The libertarian dream will not be realized via collapse of the system.

I see the Liberty Dollar as the route to get to a better system. The long term goal is to stop using fake units like "dollars" and instead use physical quantities like ounces or grams. Hell, even using "troy" bothers me (seems like playing with definitions). However, only the very enlightened will be currently willing to do that, so we need a way to convert the system incrementally. That's where the Liberty Dollar comes in - it allows people to use both systems simultaneously, educating them on the benefits of the precious metals while protecting them from the inherent inflation of the debt-based FRNs.

It is a nice incremental step, but I don't see it attaining such mainstream acceptance as to mitigate our coming economic disaster.

Besides, several thousand people not being totally screwed come the collapse would be better than none.

My point is that simply using the right money isn't going to prevent you from being screwed come the collapse.  They'll drag you down with them.

[AlanM]

Incrementalist,
I would rather be a Free Man in a banana republic, than a slave in a fascist dictatorship. It is not about money, or products. It is about Freedom. If bringing down the economy gives a chance for Freedom, then let the economy crash. It will anyway, so let's get it over with and start the rebuilding process.

[Caleb]

I'm with Alan.  I see the upcoming economic collapse as being our best opportunity to reclaim our freedoms.  Let it come!

Caleb

[Russell Kanning]

Everybody who reads this thread should send a letter to their representative.

I don't have any representatives in DC.

[AlanM]

Everybody who reads this thread should send a letter to their representative.

I don't have any representatives in DC.

Not even Ron Paul? 
Actually, no lover of Freedom has representation, except for Ron.

[Dreepa]

Silver and Gold may not be worth anything in a collapse.

Food is worth much more.

[Incrementalist]

Incrementalist,
I would rather be a Free Man in a banana republic, than a slave in a fascist dictatorship. It is not about money, or products. It is about Freedom. If bringing down the economy gives a chance for Freedom, then let the economy crash. It will anyway, so let's get it over with and start the rebuilding process.

That's the problem, bringing down the economy isn't a chance for freedom - it's the gateway to a violent nightmare, far from an unbiased state of nature.

[AlanM]

You and I will have to agree to disagree on this. I see the opportunities for Freedom, you see violence and fear. *shrugs*

[Lloyd Danforth]

In all fairness, a complete breakdown of the economy will include some unpleasant fallout.  I wouldn't want to live near a city when it happened.
Also, the immediate response to an economic collapse would, more likely, bring about 'Socialist' solutions than the ones we seek.  See: the 1930's.
I think it would take a far larger catastrophe than mere economic collapse for pockets of libertarian communities to break out, in areas libertarians could protect. Other communities will break out, also: socialist, dictatorships, religious and, directly, slave based.
There is a good Sc-Fi read called 'Lucifer's Hammer' that will get you thinking about the possibilities.

[Dreepa]

I have read that book.

If the economy collapses I expect we will have martial law in this country.

[Kat Kanning]

Read it a long time ago, but don't remember anything about it.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Must have made a Hell of an impression on you
___________________________________________________________________________
Review:

Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, both excellent "hard science fiction" writers themselves, have also been perhaps the best collaboration team in recent years. Lucifer's Hammer is the story of two amateur astronomers discovering the existence of a very large comet that promises to pass very close to Earth. Tim Hamner, a wealthy manufacturer who has a private observatory in the Sierras, and Gavin Brown, an Iowa schoolboy who ground his own lenses for his homemade telescope, are credited with near-simultaneous sighting of the comet. As the story progresses, the Hamner-Brown comet becomes the subject of a network news series and brings a U.S. Senator, Arthur Jellison, on board with proposals to fund a space mission for studying the comet. The mission turns into a joint US-USSR (remember them?) effort using leftover Apollo and Soyuz hardware (pre-Shuttle times, obviously). Further study shows a very close pass coming, maybe even a collision, and as the news gets out, a new religious cult, the Comet Wardens, starts up in Southern California. Their leader dubs the comet "The Hammer of God", much to Hamner's consternation, and Hammer Fever is on!

Scientists are drawn in for help on the network documentaries, and this leads to some black-comedic dialogue as some Jet Propulsion Laboratory people try to explain the possible effects of a collision:

"When the mass is above a certain size, it stops being important whether Earth has an atmosphere or not."

"Except to us," Forrester said, deadpan.

Sharps paused a second, then laughed... "What we need is a good analogy. Um..." Sharps' brow furrowed.

"Hot fudge sundae," said Forrester.

"Hah?"

Forrester's grin was wide through his beard. "A cubic mile of hot fudge sundae. Cometary speeds."

Time passes. It looks like the Hammer is going to be very close indeed, and people begin to make survival preparations. The Apollo-Soyuz mission is launched, and the astronauts are watching as Earth takes some hits. I?m sure this isn?t really giving away the plot. To me, there was never any question of a major strike, just looking at the title and dust jacket of Lucifer's Hammer. Actually more than half of the book is taken up with the period following what became known as Hot Fudge Sundae (which fell on a Tuesdae this week). The authors paint a detailed and highly believable picture of the destruction, but temper it with hope for the survivors and the world. The plot is full of interesting characters and loads of action. This has to be one of the best-thought-out disaster books ever done, full of ?can-do? people facing panicked mobs, weather, earthquakes, all the consequences you might imagine from another body striking the Earth. It also has some background political commentary, built well into the plot, about environmentalism, nuclear power, radical religious cults, good and bad things about government... Niven and Pournelle can make socio-political statements without simply hitting the reader in the chops with it. The characters speak for the issues without ever sounding preachy. The amount of information presented about catastrophic natural events is impressive in itself.

Great characters, a highly involved plot, a bit of politics, a lot of information, and a book that really grabs you from the start. What more can you want?

[Caleb]

The upcoming economic crisis, imho, will be tied to energy scarcity.  Since the crisis will be vastly different than in the 30's, we should hope for different results.  In an intense energy crisis, small pockets of self-sustainings communities will be far more likely to develop than large, unwieldy police-states governed from a central command.

I'm not saying the feds won't TRY ...

I'm just saying it will be a difficult thing to pull off.

Caleb