Freedom Friends Tuath

[Russell Kanning]

What a great idea. I will have to check to see if we can come.

[tracysaboe]

I may suggest adding fraud to the zap.

Fraud is theft; theft violates ZAP.

But yeah, some people do need to have it spelled out explicitly.

Kevin

Some people define fraud so broadly that even if all government did was prosecute it we'd still live in a police state. That's why we need competing institutions. People can use the institutions that define it the way they like, and shun the ones they think are too loose or too restrictive.

Tracy

[nx2059]

Is it possible for someone to join the Tauth, even if you do not live in NH (Yet).

[Fluff and Stuff]

Is it possible for someone to join the Tauth, even if you do not live in NH (Yet).

Yes!  Join away.

[nx2059]

"I will watch for opportunities to voluntarily help and protect other tuath members in times of need."

When I read this, it makes me worrisome.  Who decides when it is approporiate to "help" someone, and when it is not.  When I go to downtown Chicago, and I am constantly bombarded by panhandlers looking for money.  Who is to say that if I give the panhandler a quarter I'm helping them, by "feeding the poor", or I'm hurting them by "enabling them" in their self destructive behavior.  I think that the tuath would be better off by leaving out this clause.  Furthermore, I believe that voluntary help should be just that, voluntary, not part of some contract (even if it is based on the honor system.)  How do I know if the person I'm offering help to will not abuse my help?  Just being in the Tuath alone (especially when it is starting up) isn't enough to create trusting relationship.

[Lex]

Who decides when it is approporiate to "help" someone, and when it is not.

The government of course! No, just kidding. You decide!

When I go to downtown Chicago, and I am constantly bombarded by panhandlers looking for money.  Who is to say that if I give the panhandler a quarter I'm helping them, by "feeding the poor", or I'm hurting them by "enabling them" in their self destructive behavior.

I'd say that if the indecisiveness is tearing you apart stop going to donwtown Chicago.

Actually, this might help: Chainsaw Surgery: Using the State to Help the Poor

Furthermore, I believe that voluntary help should be just that, voluntary, not part of some contract (even if it is based on the honor system.)

That's what it says in the contract, your help should be voluntary. I'm not sure I understand your dilemma.

[nx2059]

Who decides when it is approporiate to "help" someone, and when it is not.

The government of course! No, just kidding. You decide!

When I go to downtown Chicago, and I am constantly bombarded by panhandlers looking for money.  Who is to say that if I give the panhandler a quarter I'm helping them, by "feeding the poor", or I'm hurting them by "enabling them" in their self destructive behavior.

I'd say that if the indecisiveness is tearing you apart stop going to donwtown Chicago.

Actually, this might help: Chainsaw Surgery: Using the State to Help the Poor

Furthermore, I believe that voluntary help should be just that, voluntary, not part of some contract (even if it is based on the honor system.)

That's what it says in the contract, your help should be voluntary. I'm not sure I understand your dilemma.

My question is this.  Would disputes arise that you didn't provide "Voluntary Help" (Like you agreed to do in the contract), that would require arbitration?

[Lex]

My question is this.  Would disputes arise that you didn't provide "Voluntary Help" (Like you agreed to do in the contract), that would require arbitration?

You can't sue someone for not doing something that is voluntary.

[Thespis]

The contract asks you to be aware of opportunities to help others, but it in no way requires you to actually help. And, no one can be held accountable for not helping, because the actual action of helping is voluntary. The clause is just asking for you to be observant of the other people involved with the contract.

[Kat Kanning]

The kinds of help that have been requested (and received) have been things like moving help, ride to airport....things we would have helped with anyway if there hadn't been a tuath.  It's totally voluntary.  Like the airport ride was quite a distance to us, so we didn't really jump to volunteer to do that, but others closer did.  If I asked for help and didn't receive any from the tuath, I wouldn't think badly of anyone, much less take them to arbitration.  It really is voluntary.  I help them because I like them.

[nx2059]

The contract asks you to be aware of opportunities to help others, but it in no way requires you to actually help. And, no one can be held accountable for not helping, because the actual action of helping is voluntary. The clause is just asking for you to be observant of the other people involved with the contract.

I see, I guess I misread it.. It says.

"I will watch for opportunities to voluntarily help and protect other tuath members in times
of need."

[Thespis]

I see, I guess I misread it.. It says.

"I will watch for opportunities to voluntarily help and protect other tuath members in times
of need."

Exactly, to watch is to be observant, to take notice. Watching and acting are two different things.

[Russell Kanning]

If you are worried, don't join this particular tuath. You could make your own without this particular phrase.

[Barterer]

Is it possible for someone to join the Tauth, even if you do not live in NH (Yet).

Yes!  Join away.

Great, I think I'll join.  I've read all the pros and cons mentioned througout this thread.  The main advantage to this thing will be the contacts and contRacts .  A newcomer needs all of those he can get.  I've got a long way to go before I'm ready to move, but it remains my strongest and most persistent dream.  I joined FSP and will join the tuath now, as a sort of promise to myself.

[nx2059]

How does the ZAP relate to an eminent attack?  Is a pre-emptive strike justified in this situation?  I mean on the one hand, You would be initiating force..  But on the other hand, if an emeny is preparing to wipe you out in one blow, you're not going to have a chance to retaliate at all.  Any comments?