I think I started an endless "debate."

[John]

I think I started an endless "debate" over on one of the Buddhist forums.
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/comment/210975#Comment_210975
I can't keep up with it all, but it started when (on a different thread) someone said "...we live in a free society don't we?" So, I said I'd start a seperate thread for that, and started with this July 4th post:

"While we were growing up we were told that we lived in the freest country in the word.
In fact, we were told, that we lived in the freest country that has ever existed.
Hmm. That's pretty impressive.

As we got a bit older, we were additionally endlessly instructed by the corporate media, and in the government schools, that there were "evil" governments elsewhere in the world. "They" weren't like "us." Some "countries" were so evil (we were told) that "we" needed to go over there and break all of their stuff and kill lots, and lots, and lots of people, year, after year, after year.

We were told, "Freedom isn't Free."

So what was it that made all "those other governments" "over there" so evil?
Well, first and foremost; the people in "those countries" were not allowed to be Free.
But how could we tell that they are not Free?
I'll list several things we were told. Please add to this list as you think of more:

People "over there" were not allowed to own private property.
They had to fill out endless government forms.
People "over there" even had to carry paperwork with them at all times.
People could not have a business without government permission. And, IF they were able to get permission, they were then subjected to endless regulation and routine (often by surprise) government inspections.
"Those evil governments" put people in prisons for "political" reasons. As in; even if there was no victim, the government could lock people away just because the government did not approve of their behavior. Those victims of government violence were called "political prisoners."
"Those governments" had large percentages of the population in prisons.
People in "those evil places" were encouraged to spy on their neighbors – and even on their own family members.
Some people were even required to report things they saw to the government.
"Those governments" did random searches of cars and trucks at roadblocks.
"They" had government cameras on the streets.
"Those governments" tortured their prisoners.
And just because I'm getting tired I'll end now with; "Those evil governments had endless wars all over the planet. Sometimes the wars were to control (aka steal) resources, and other wars were simply to impose "their" form of government on others.

Every single one of these is now done by "your" government.
If these things are what made the other governments evil, then what does it say about "your" government?

And so in closing:
What do you suppose that those "evil governments" (way over there) tell the children in those government schools? That the U.S.A. is the freest country in the world, and that "their own" country is ruled by tyrants?"

[John]

Oh. So now (at least) one of the government "lurkers" who keeps up with ALL OF US, over here on the underground, will probably have to also go check up on me over on that Buddhist forum - FOREVER. Welcome.

If government lurkers ever learn something, do they applie it to their lives?
Or do they just- hmm - oh I don't know - what do they do?
Very sad.

[CurtHowland]

One would think that Buddhists, with their supposed revulsion to coercion, would see the "gun in the room" and recognize that all government action is rooted in overwhelming violence.

But no, the idea of "rulership" is very, very deeply rooted in the human psyche.

[John]

I am very disappointed with most of my Buddhist friends, but then I think that they are just as thouroughly conditioned/brainwashed as the rest of us, so I really should not be any more disappointed with them than with others.

Lots and lots of people know about, and even like, and believe the messages of Jesus, Buddha, Tolstoy, Gandhi, MLK, Thoreau, and on and on, etc. and yet something (government) has polluted their minds - and broken their spirit.

I sometime think I should not even waist my time trying to help reach people, but then I think that while I'm here it is something I simply must do.
I'm now thinking of a famous Blues Brothers line: "I'm on a mission from God."

[CurtHowland]

I'm now thinking of a famous Blues Brothers line: "I'm on a mission from God."

Brothers and Sisters, I bring you the word of Mises, and his disciple  Rothbard!

[AntonLee]

I have a feeling I was equally unanamored by the talk of spending more money to save people by bombing them at a local quaker meeting I went to.  It's disappointing to see the Obama stickers on their cars and invitations to go root for him at rallies.

Peace is just peace.  No hurting, no stealing, no harming, no nothing just PEACE.  Brainwashed into making things more complicated than they need to be is something I'm glad to be freeing myself from.

[CurtHowland]

Peace is just peace.  No hurting, no stealing, no harming, no nothing just PEACE.

The reply I get from the hopelessly confused when I say something like that is,

"You really need to grow up and get some perspective. The world isn't black and white."

[John]

I like to remind people that things, often, are not nearly as complicated as some people want to make them out to be....

[Russell Kanning]

it also may be true that some guys on a Buddhist forum are taking the 1st baby steps.