Main thread for Ed and Elaine Brown vs the evil IRS, Part 18

[Rodinia]

Not being familiar with law or legalese, this is my point of view.

So, there is a constitutional amendment which the ratification of is questionable declaring the right of congress to lay and collect.
For sake of argument, let's say the ratification isn't in question.

For sake of argument, the following statement is true.
Congress constitutionally has the authority to lay and collect taxes.

My question is this.

When was the bill introduced before congress to lay an income tax?

I don't mean the IRS code either.
I personally don't feel the IRS is a legal entity. I do see the lay and collect tax amendment in the constitution but I do not see an amendment which creates a revenue service.

That said, if congress has the constitutional authority to collect taxes, does that amendment give them the de facto right to impose any tax at any time through any agency? It doesn't say one way or the other.

I did finally watch the movie America, Freedom to Fascism and it was really compelling and further served to fan the flames of my fury for the federal government.

So, can someone enlighten me please?

[LordBaltimore]

When was the bill introduced before congress to lay an income tax?

I don't mean the IRS code either.

1862, 1913, and most recently in 1954.  The Internal Revenue Code just takes the words of the bills passed into law by Congress and organizes them into a numbered section system.  If you want to see the public laws that are behind every code section, just use a legal service like Westlaw or Lexis.

For example, Section 1 reads in part "There is hereby imposed on the taxable income of every individual ... a tax determined in accordance with the following table."

If you want to see the laws passed by Congress that created those words, you look at the footnotes for the section which trace all the public laws that altered Section 1 since it was passed in 1954.  P.L. is the abbreviation for "Public Law" which is what a Congressional bill becomes when the President signs it into law.

(Aug. 16, 1954, ch 736, 68A Stat. 5; Feb. 26, 1964, P.L. 88-272, Title I, § 111, 78 Stat. 19; Nov. 13, 1966, P.L. 89-809, Title I, § 103(a)(2), 80 Stat. 1550; Dec. 30, 1969, P.L. 91-172, Title VIII, § 803(a), 83 Stat. 678; May 23, 1977, P.L. 95-30, Title I, § 101(a), 91 Stat. 127; Nov. 6, 1978, P.L. 95-600, Title I, § 101(a), 92 Stat. 2767; Aug. 13, 1981, P.L. 97-34, Title I, §§ 101(a), 104(a), 95 Stat. 176, 188; Jan. 12, 1983, P.L. 97-448, Title I, § 101(a)(3), 96 Stat. 2366; Oct. 22, 1986, P.L. 99-514, Title I, § 101(a), Title III, § 302(a), Title XIV, § 1411(a), 100 Stat. 2096, 2218, 2714; Nov. 10, 1988, P.L. 100-647, Title I, §§ 1001(a)(3), 1014(e)(1)-(3), (6), (7), Title VI, § 6006(a), 102 Stat. 3349, 3561, 3562, 3686; Dec. 19, 1989, P.L. 101-239, Title VII, §§ 7811(j)(1), 7816(b), 7831(a), 103 Stat. 2411, 2420, 2425; Nov. 5, 1990, P.L. 101-508, Title XI, §§ 11101(a)-(c), (d)(1)(A), (2), 11103(c), 11104(b), 104 Stat. 1388-403-1388-406, 1388-408; Aug. 10, 1993, P.L. 103-66, Title XIII, §§ 13201(a), (b)(3)(A), (B), 13202(a), 13206(d)(2), 107 Stat. 457, 459, 461, 467; Aug. 20, 1996, P.L. 104-188, Title I, § 1704(m)(1), (2), 110 Stat. 1882, 1883; Aug. 5, 1997, P.L. 105-34, Title III, § 311(a), 111 Stat. 831; July 22, 1998, P.L. 105-206, Title V, § 5001(a)(1)-(4), Title VI, §§ 6005(d)(1), 6007(f)(1), 112 Stat. 787, 788, 800, 810; Oct. 21, 1998, P.L. 105-277, Div J, Title IV, § 4002(i)(1), (3), 112 Stat. 2681-907, 2681-908; Dec. 21, 2000, P.L. 106-554, § 1(a)(7) (Title I, § 117(b)(1)), 114 Stat. 2763, 2763A-604; June 7, 2001, P.L. 107-16, Title I, § 101(a), (c)(1), (2), Title III, §§ 301(c)(1), 302(a), (b), 115 Stat. 41, 43, 54; May 28, 2003, P.L. 108-27, Title I, §§ 102(a), (b)(1), 104(a), (b), 105(a), Title III, §§ 301(a)(1), (2)(A), (b)(1), 302(a), (e)(1), 117 Stat. 754, 755, 758, 760, 763; Oct. 4, 2004, P.L. 108-311, Title I, § 101(c), (d), Title IV, §§ 402(a)(1)-(3), 408(a)(1), (2), 118 Stat. 1167, 1184, 1190; Oct. 22, 2004, P.L. 108-357, Title IV, § 413(c)(1), 118 Stat. 1506; May 17, 2006, P.L. 109-222, Title V, § 510(a)-(c), 120 Stat. 364.)  (As amended May 25, 2007, P.L. 110-28, Title VIII, Subtitle B, Part 2, § 8241, 121 Stat. 199.)

I personally don't feel the IRS is a legal entity. I do see the lay and collect tax amendment in the constitution but I do not see an amendment which creates a revenue service.

It isn't a separate legal entity.  It's just part of the US Treasury.  Congress created an office within the US Treasury called the Commissioner of Internal Revenue in 1862.  They then gave that office a whopping big budget to hire employees (4,000 of them in 1862).  The IRS is just a name for the employees of the Commissioner of Internal Revenue.

That said, if congress has the constitutional authority to collect taxes, does that amendment give them the de facto right to impose any tax at any time through any agency? It doesn't say one way or the other.

The US Treasury has been in charge of collecting taxes since the founding fathers passed the very first tax laws.  Congress simply carved out a bureaucracy within the Treasury 145 years ago to handle the collection and auditing functions.

[TackleTheWorld]

btw, I am thinking of heading up to the Browns for July 4th. Have the Browns agreed to the gathering?

Kola

I did recieve a PM and without going into details, I will withdraw my offer for them. I will send cash to thier PO box and they can do what they like with it.

The BBQ is not called off.  I got a call from Elaine today.

Independence Day Party at Ed & Elaine's Place.
Ed & Elaine invite supporters and well-wishers to gather at their home for Independence day.
Wednesday, July 4th, 2007
10 am to 10 pm
401 Center of Town Rd.
Plainfield NH

It's a pot luck, bring a big helping of what ever you like, and others will do the same.
Questions? Contact Lauren: 603-239-8506
Who wants to make potato salad?

[JosephSHaas]

..."There is hereby imposed on the taxable income of every individual ... a tax determined in accordance with the following table." ....

Richard, As I've written before, this "every"body word only applies to like here's yet another example of: everyone ON the boat, not everybody in the harbor, or on shore, etc.

And thanks K.B. for the U.L. story today that I've just sent my reply to, to see if/when they might print this as #3 of 3?

"So what if the 16th Amendment passed?  It doesn't apply to the public-at-large, as the E.O./Executive Order from the President, to the Secretary of the Treasury, for him to issue his T.O./Treasury Order is NOT published in the CFR/Code of Federal Regulations, as required to affect us in the private sector.  These federal government goons want to dilute their share by foisting it upon us!  Wise up! read the very definition of the phrase 'lay and collect' over in footnote #1 of my rebuttal at newhampshireunderground.com  Can Stephen Black or Michael York combat that? or the OMB# stuff too?  I doubt it! Thanks for having Brenden Kelly. At least you're not as bad as Channel 9 with only Black on last Monday night, June 18th.  Maybe you'll have equal replies from both sides next time?"

BTW The reference to footnote #1 is for my Reply #____ of that Mon., June 18th, 2007 @ 10:54 PM to be exact, that was really AFTER the 11:00 p.m. WMUR-News as this website clock is about 45-minutes late.

Yours truly, - - Joe Haas

Modification: "Tim -- 'but' from the President's E.O./ Executive Order the Secretary of the Treasury issued his T.O., but that it's NOT published in the CFR: Code of Federal Regulations".

[LordBaltimore]

Rodinia, if you're looking for the orginal laws passed by Congress in 1913 to implement the newly ratified 16th Amendment, I found you a copy online on Bob Schulz' We The People website.

The bill was called the Revenue Act of 1913, and the income tax provisions start on page 3.

http://www.givemeliberty.org/docs/TaxResearchCD/TaxActs/1913CompleteAct.pdf

[NC2NH]

Whoa! This back and forth on Vermont is going on across two different threads... I think the Browns thread is long enough without discussing Vermont here.

Hollywood, Is this O.K. to say thanks to both: Ethan Allen and CNHT, because if not for them talking about "The Green Mountain State" over here in "The Granite State", I might not have found that http://www.oilempire.us/secession.html

Sure, Joe. I just want to try to keep things organized, especially when all the other admins are at PorcFest.

BTW, I'm glad you're out of jail. The people who had you locked up should be ashamed of themselves.

[JosephSHaas]

Whoa! This back and forth on Vermont is going on across two different threads... I think the Browns thread is long enough without discussing Vermont here.

Hollywood, Is this O.K. to say thanks to both: Ethan Allen and CNHT, because if not for them talking about "The Green Mountain State" over here in "The Granite State", I might not have found that http://www.oilempire.us/secession.html

Sure, Joe. I just want to try to keep things organized, especially when all the other admins are at PorcFest.

BTW, I'm glad you're out of jail. The people who had you locked up should be ashamed of themselves.

Thanks to: TackleTheWorld too for starting my own "Joe Haas Arrest" section, http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=9345.30

I've just added my Reply #32 over there on page 3, and numbered into seven (7) paragraphs to offset what the VALLEY NEWS and its sister newspaper, The CONCORD MONITOR did and did not write about me, having to do this so that anybody reading that story gets the complete picture, and to give you a Progress Report should maybe Judge Johnson be investigated for embezzlement too.  Either way I expect an apology from the courts +/or the governor, my pardon application having been on hold now for over 1/2 year, way longer than the normal time for some reason(s) like this Ed Brown case? Gov. John H. Lynch maybe telling Audrey Blodget over at the A.G.'s Office for Pardon Application processing on the 1st floor there NOT to SEND mine over to the Council, to what? Get the Executive Council to BRING it over? I heard Mitt Romney, when he was MAss.achusetts governor didn't even hold any hearings! No pardons at all: zip, zero, nada. And the Mormons are proud of this!? record, of his running for President.  Surely Aaron Russou, like in his "Freedom to Fascism" film, says that when the shit hits the fan, like when Ed finally wins his case on these very basic principles, then everyone so imprisoned unjustly ought to get a FULL pardon plus $amount in damages, and so not expecting ANY of the Presidential candidates to do so pledge this unless we can get them on record BEFORE the N.H. Primary vote. Maybe that's WHY Gov. Lynch is stahling on doing his Art. 41 duty to assert this RSA 123:1 action, so that he's not made to be the jerk that he is on national television! An action that I called for him to do back in January, and now its 6 months = 1/2 year later, and he's still farting around the place. Maybe we ought to put up some warning signs like WARNING: STINK ZONE, hold your nose from the government crap inside. Yup, that'll be my poster if/when we ever picket like the next G&C Meeting on Wednesday ______ __, 2007 @ 10:00 o'clock a.m. http://www.state.nh.us

See the P.S. section for my next alert in Ed's case to present similar paperwork to both courts for where the IRS/Treasury Agents/ Marshals might WANT the next auction to take place, to see if yet another County: Grafton County, either goes along with the same old crap like Sullivan County Commissioners, or maybe does indeed "Wise up" like after Bernie gets that legal opinion from the Plainfield Town Attorney ____________ for the Selectmens Meeting next Tuesday July 3rd @ __:__ o'clock p.m. to say: yes, there are no RSA 123:1 filings by the feds and so for them to get lost/ keep away from our citizens, The Browns, as they/the Browns have paid for and expect this Article 12 protection! Surely this will be a true cause for Independence Day fireworks, the independence or check-and-balance from the Feds acting like the British to whom we rebelled against, King George answering our petitions with repeated injuries, just like what's going on today!

[JosephSHaas]

Here's another one from the http://www.unionleader.com

"IRS official cites federal tax code" by Kristen Senz, quoting Frank Keith, chief of communications and liason for the IRS, http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=IRS+official+cites+federal+code&articleId=2710f166-1e74-4fce-853e-e443ccc3869e

My Reply (#1 of 1? so far) was just sent in at exactly 7:15 p.m. tonight that reads: "O.K. Chief Keith, you say not to 'dissect' the U.S. Code, then WHERE is it IN the Code that makes a person: (1) "liable" as in Sec. 6011(a)? or (2) "required" as in Sec. 6012(a)?  The answer is OUTside the Code by completing the sentence: 'When required by REGULATIONS prescribed by the secretary' (emphasis ADDed, as you will see:) and published in the C.F.R.= Code of Federal REGULATIONS! They do not exist!"

Yours truly, - - Joe Haas

Modification:  See also "What the law says" by: ____________ (no name) with three replies so far, over at http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=What+the+law+says&articleId=25d2faff-a701-4cb1-8850-62012199ebda

[error]

Does anyone know when Randy Weaver departs from the Brown's property?

He said he is staying indefinitely.

Now, who are you?

[LordBaltimore]

Hi Joe.  There's a fairly long video of your arrest and the Plainfield town meeting on the Brown blog:

http://questforfairtrialinconcordnh.blogspot.com/

[JosephSHaas]

Hi Joe.  There's a fairly long video of your arrest and the Plainfield town meeting on the Brown blog:

http://questforfairtrialinconcordnh.blogspot.com/

Thanks Richard,

That's the same one as I did post early Friday morning, June 22nd @ 2:11 AM (Reply #4293 @ page 293), see #2.

It's over ten (10) minutes, 10:12 to be exact, and at 1:05 into it, down to 9:05 on the second look from your link here, the other one stays at #s from the start on the replays) gets you to that Mystery Car that took off I was told when the camera approached, and MIGHT have gotten the license plate TYPE of gov't, or #?

Plus see 1:42 into the film for what we call: "The Three Faces of Evil" 

Bernie did an excellent explanation for the presentation of the certificate proving the federal non-filing as required by RSA 123:1 down from 1-8-17 U.S. Const., so when he next meets with the Plainfield Selectmen on Tue., July 3rd to find out what their Town Attorney has decided for the Town to do +/or not do?, that is the question.

Best wishes, - Joe

P.S. To hammer it in, if he has to, that this federal courthouse might be exempt from section 2 of RSA 123 for property taxes as per ownership, http://www.state.nh.us but NOT section 1 as per their operations OFF the turf, for which they "shall" have a filing BEFORE asserting any Congressional legislation for withIN the rest of the state, and that includes this U.S. Code also with a non-filing of the T.O./Treasury Order in the C.F.R./ Code of Federal Regulations! Or in other words: the games rules being set up by Washington, but the Secretary not registered to play in the offensive against us! Sort of like that boardgame of CLUE.  Secretary John W. Snow [or: ___________ now who took his place] did it in the conservatory with a knife, ...but this was AFTER he had to escape by knife from the man-eating plant!, sort of like the dog trained to go after badges on uniforms.    See the "(3)" and "Dravo also...." paragraphs over at http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm00664.htm for the very words in the U.S. Attorney Manual #664 about  "the 17th Clause of Article I, Sec. 8 of the Constitution...(of the United States) embraces courthouses...."

[Russell Kanning]

The person who is dictator of this site gave me -7K karma all on his own, he holds the power, I like to refer to him as Adolf.

http://forumnazis.com ...... say it ain't so!

I love those guys

[JosephSHaas]

The Porcupines:

It was good to meet you "Dreepa" yesterday afternoon, Sat., June 23rd over at the base lodge of Gunstock, where I was told it was built back during the WPA / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration

Also Dick Marple with his F.I.J.A. / Fully Informed Jury Association table, Lois Gardner & Howard Wilson at a table across the way, and others below the balcony too of the founder of The American Liberty Dollar with his certificates he was autographing for $1.00 each, and get them while you can: the state $20.00 silver coins, with "NEW HAMPSHIRE" for 2006, and CALIFORNIA for 2007 with the bear, as the only one without the Statue of Liberty Torch so far, for the + $5.00 premium to $25.00 each, but in a limited minting, as encased.

Plus others with brochures collected, to read over later, like from Gun Owners of New Hampshire, and Ron Paul for President, me talking with his recruit about not an audit of the Fed as I remember was the thing back in the 1980s, but to audit the U.S. Mint to see how much gold the Fed has deposited per pallet of FRNs delivered to their member banks, this #_____ refused to be given to me by the F.O.I.A. so needing government agent action, like from Paul.

Also the hemp soap lady, and real estate brokers (one on each side of the 1st floor there, M+F).

And don't forget to read/buy BLADE Magazine for the cover story I think the speaker said of this month's issue for that knife that was raffled off for only $5.00 with the autographed book by John Stossel of ABC-TV 20/20.

Ed Naile was there too and got me to pose as a crazy would-be terrorist ringing his neck!  with photo up at his website soon.  In the meantime you might find his article about me interesting, entitled: "Joe Hass's Dog Almost Bit Me, Call The SWAT Team" over at http://www.nhinsider.com/ed-naile/2007/6/23/joe-haass-dog-almost-bit-me-call-the-swat-team.html with info about Peter MacDonald of Lee, N.H. retired from the military service and who likes to help people with their town zoning cases, one incident with a letter to the governor merely citing the fact that we have the Article 10 Right of Revolution in our state Constitution "and" the fact that he has PTSD, plus he might not know what might happen next, that somebody gave me the analogy of like Bill Bixby in The Incredible Hulk, as the scientist: David Bruce Banner, saying to investigative reporter: Jack McGree something like: Please don't make me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry... Peter spending #____ time in jail before a release on condition of being monitored, and with more letters bringing the State Police to his house to convince his wife to try to stop his First Amendment Freedom of Speech as the government agents he was sending them too didn't like to be told how to do their jobs.

Yours truly, - - Joe H.

[error]

It was good to meet you "Dreepa" yesterday afternoon, Sat., June 23rd over at the base lodge of Gunstock, where I was told it was built back during the WPA / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration

It was. I saw the plaque proclaiming it to be so. It made me so sad that I couldn't even pull out my camera to take a picture of it.

[CNHT]

Ed Naile was there too and got me to pose as a crazy would-be terrorist ringing his neck!  with photo up at his website soon. 

Really!