I'm not sure what "subject" line to write so I'm just going with "The Bible"

[Raineyrocks]

Here is an article about how 'meat-eaters lie and commit sex crimes' based on religious ideas.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20354669

Thanks, so I'm not the only one that has trouble staying on topic, huh?    I get it, religious ideas can cause some people to do crazy stuff, right?  I'm glad I'm a vegetarian!

P.S. I just got done reading the whole article and I didn't mean that I think meat eaters are scumbags just because I'm a vegetarian. 

I know it isn't because your a vegetarian, it's because others eat meat.

Alrighty then...........

[Jim Johnson]

I was wrong about King James wanting a divorce, that was Henry VIII.
Henry VIII separated the Church of England from the Pope in Rome and was excommunicate for it.
King James came later and rewrote the Bible to smooth things over in England.

[MaineShark]

   There's absolutley nothing I can or would even try to say except that I think you're right. 

Thanks.

The human body is a ridiculously-poor bit of engineering.  An all-powerful deity who just snaps fingers to Create the universe, could do far better.  As a work-in-progress by a deity who is using evolution, it can make sense; as a final product, it cannot.

[Kat Kanning]

The Bible tells us that God created the world and everything all at once - in 6 days.

Actually, the Hebrew word, "yom" does not necessarily mean "day," in the conventional "24 hour" sense.  "Epoch," "era," "span of time" are all also acceptable translations of the word.  "Ereb" and "boqer" (evening and morning) may also be plural, or may refer to the endings and beginnings of a span of time (similar to the English phrase, "in his twilight years").

Hebrew is very difficult to translate, and there are numerous known and provable errors in the King James Bible (eg, the Comandment, "thou shalt not kill," when the actual Hebrew unequivocally uses "murder," not "kill").  Asserting that a particular translation of a term with multiple known meanings is "the" translation of that word does not make sense.

Genesis also actually describes evolution.  It does not describe God snapping His fingers and "poof," there are plants and animals.  God says, "let the earth bring forth..." and such, clearly indicating that God is commanding natural processes to perform the actual nitty-gritty of Creation.  Which is actually more impressive - any idiot can place dominoes in a pattern on the floor, but only a genius could line up thousands of them so that tapping one causes each to fall in turn, in perfect coordination, to create the final picture.

I've never actually understood the Christian opposition to evolution, both in light of the phrasing used in Genesis, as well as considering which version is actually more impressive: building something with your hands, or having such perfect Knowledge and Skill that you can fling a single pebble down a hill and know that the resulting landslide will end up with rocks forming themselves into a city at the bottom...

There are many many fulfilled prophesies in the Bible.  It contains about 3,856 verses directly or indirectly concerned with prophecy.  The destruction of Tyre, the invasion of Jerusalem, the fall of Babylon and Rome—each event was accurately predicted in the Bible and later fulfilled to the smallest detail.   How did these prophets know what would happen in the future without the intervention of God.

How do we know that those "smallest details" were not added to the narrative, after the fact?  None of us read those prophesies before those events, so how can we know?

Wow, your description of creation and evolution is awesome and beautiful!    

Do you think the bible was initially the divine word of God and then translated incorrectly?  If all of the bibles are corrupted. so to say. then how can people be following God's word the "right" way?

Exactly, "kill" and "murder" changes the entire commandment!  I've read the Jehovah's Witness bible and just by changing something as simple as a comma changed the entire meaning of the verse. 

How are people supposed to live their lives by a book full of errors?  I'm just throwing questions out here, I'm not trying to imply that you believe one thing or the other.

I think the Bible is the devine word of God.  I don't think there are errors in it.

[Kat Kanning]

God's creation was perfect, but when Adam and Eve sinned, death and all sorts of nasty things entered the world.  That is why we have disease.  I think the human body is an absolutely amazing bit of engineering, even so.

[MaineShark]

I think the Bible is the devine word of God.  I don't think there are errors in it.

Which one?  There are hundreds of Bibles, which don't agree with each other.  So which one is correct?

God's creation was perfect, but when Adam and Eve sinned, death and all sorts of nasty things entered the world.  That is why we have disease.

Shouldn't a perfect creation be able to survive use in the real world?  I can design all sorts of "perfect" machinery on paper, which would fail if actually built and exposed to real-world conditions and use.  If God is all-knowing, then He knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do in Eden, and His work can hardly be called "perfect" if it was not designed to survive the use to which He knew it would be put.

Plus, what about the other peoples of the world, who existed in places other than Eden?  The "divine word of God" is absolutely explicit on Adam and Eve not being the only humans on the planet, but is rather vague on who created the other people, where they were distributed (other than that some of them had cities within easy travelling distance of Eden), or how they would fit in with the Fall.  Did the choices made by Adam and Eve somehow cause those other (presumably-innocent) people to suffer?  Did it cause their existing bodies to change, such that their pelvic bone structure became such that childbirth became difficult and painful?  That their cardivascular systems would wear out while their minds were still functional?  That their cells' ability to self-repair would sometimes go awry, leading to cancer?  That children would sometimes be born with horribly deformities which cause them agony until their early deaths?  Why do I see a memorial at DHMC to a little girl who died at age ten, with a note about how bravely she faced death?  How, precisely, does some stranger's actions, minimum (if we asume some Bibles to be verbatim) thousands of years in the past, result in an innocent child having to spend the last few years of her first decade on this planet, bravely facing her own death?

I think the human body is an absolutely amazing bit of engineering, even so.

So, when a toddler gets appendicitis and has to spend a month in a hospital due to complications (which happened to a neighbor's kid), that's because of "amazing engineering," and not because the appendix is a vestigial organ left over from an evolutionary process?  Why is it there, if not for evolution?

[Russell Kanning]

I've never liked exclusive clubs.
I was kicked out a disco in Des Monies for wearing a hat.
My Pastor kicked me out of their Confirmation class picture for wearing a turtle neck.
I was kicked out of High School for one day because I had forgotten to wear a belt.

I wonder if after following all of God's rules, there will also be some arbitrary dress code that will keep you out of heaven.

in some churches turtlenecks are the norm for pastors. Maybe he was confirming you into a tie club.

[Russell Kanning]

I understand what your saying completely but in which ways could "god" be defined?  Energy, maybe?  For the most part, unless I'm thrown off track for awhile like I was when I began this thread, I believe that there is a "creator" and I call him God but mostly due to conditioning.  I've tried to refer to "the creator" in other terms but then it just doesn't sound right to me; like I said conditioning.  What could have created all that "is" ?   

I dunno, but when a stereotypical girly-girl turns four and blows out her candles, she should be wishing for a pony, or a ballerina costume, or a pony wearing a ballerina costume, not "I wish mommy didn't have cancer," so if someone did create this mess of a universe, that entity was incompetent, sadistic, or both.

No omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent creature would create a universe in which any child ever had to wish something like that.

not so agnostic anymore you seem to have real opinions about how a god should act.

[MaineShark]

not so agnostic anymore you seem to have real opinions about how a god should act.

Um, how are the two related?  I'm anti-war, but I have real opinions about how soldiers should (not) act.  Et cetera.

Being agnostic does not mean I cannot have opinions on how a deity should not act, either.

And, since the absolute creation argument invariably requires that every thing that happens, happens exactly as the Creator planned it, that means that Creator, who is supposed to be wholly-good, has willfully ordained that horrifically-evil things would happen.  An entity cannot be completely good, and also Create evil.  It would be like finding one of those Voluntary Human Extinction folks running a fertility clinic; the two are simply incompatible, regardless of what one believes (if anything) about VHE or God.

Absolute creation does not allow for random chance or free will.  God set all of the parameters, and is all-knowing, so everything that has happened, is happening, or will happen, must be doing so exactly as God intended.

Since it is an observable fact that evil things happen, that either means that God is evil, or that God was lacking in knowledge of the consequences of His actions, or that God was limited in His power, and could not design around certain outcomes.

Or, absolute creation is false, and randomness, free will, and evolution are part of the universe.  That does not preclude the possibility that some deity (including the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god named "God") was responsible.  It doesn't even contradict Genesis since, as noted, the translation of "yom" as "day" was arbitrary, and was performed by individuals who made provable translation errors (maybe there's some accurate translation, but the King James Bible is definitely not it, given the many, many errors that can be proven to exist).

I just don't get the attraction to the idea of a six-day Creation, when it's not even Biblically-supported.  It's un-necessary to the message of the Bible, and folks who might otherwise be interested, are driven away by something which contradicts clearly-available evidence.  It's bad marketing.  Imagine if Ford created ads in which all of their trucks were shown with paisley paint.  Now, they offer many colors, almost any of which would be more popular than paisley, but they insist on showing none of those options, insisting that all of the ads show paisley.  How many trucks would they sell?  Would it be worth driving away customers, over something that isn't even an issue, since there are plenty of valid color choices in the catalog?

You have a message that you feel is important to the world.  So, why focus on one detail, which is unimportant to the message, and just chases away folks who might otherwise listen?  Genesis does not demand a six-day Creation, just as Ford does not offer only one paint color, so it's a poor marketing choice on either side.

So, as an agnostic, why do I care?  Because I'm not doubtful of the idea that the world would be a better place if more of the population embraced peace.  Whether Jesus was the Son Of God, or just a guy with an idea he wanted to share with the world, he had a lot of good things to say.  I want to see you spread that message, because it has a lot of worthy ideas that work regardless of whether the listener thinks of it as religion or philosophy.  The idea that someone called the Prince of Peace is worth following is an important idea, especially in a dark time like this, when most folks worship death-dealing, warmongering politicians.  Focusing on something which detracts from that for no reason, is detrimental to achieving a peaceful world.  I'm agnostic, not theistic or anti-theistic; if the world becomes more peaceful because you and others convince folks to become Christians who actually follow the teachings of peace, I'm not going to be offended by the fact that there are more believers on the planet; I'm going to be pleased that there is less violence.

[Pat K]

God's creation was perfect, but when Adam and Eve sinned, death and all sorts of nasty things entered the world.  That is why we have disease.  I think the human body is an absolutely amazing bit of engineering, even so.

Diesel fumes be powerful stuff.

[K neth]

There is no god; MaineShark and Pat K are His prophets.

[Kat Kanning]

I came to know the truth of the Bible from my own experience.  This astrophysicist came to know the truth of it from the scientific method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSvI_JtqcII&list=UU2eT0F5axBh4sBRrul1S1oQ&index=25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb-m3e5E4BE&list=UU2eT0F5axBh4sBRrul1S1oQ&index=24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xmwvtprT2A&list=UU2eT0F5axBh4sBRrul1S1oQ&index=23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlf7Hs63MT4&list=UU2eT0F5axBh4sBRrul1S1oQ&index=22

[KBCraig]

I came to know the truth of the Bible from my own experience.  This astrophysicist came to know the truth of it from the scientific method.

I remember as a child, one of my earliest experiences of paradox was, "If God created the whole world and everything in it, where did God come from?"

I was probably 3 or 4 at the time.

As an adult, Dr. Ross presented me not with an answer, but with a response to the question: "I don't have enough faith to believe that there is no higher power. It's simply too unbelievable."

I used to subscribe to his Reasons magazine. It's very good for anyone with a logical mind. He answers young-Earth creationists (the 6,000 year  crowd) just as effectively as those who insist we're all just an accident.

[Jim Johnson]

Ask an unanswerable question?  Sit there with the 'I'm an incredible philosopher' look.

Posit an unfounded explanation and look for the people who like that answer.

Scorn everyone else as nonbelievers.

[KBCraig]

Ask an unanswerable question?  Sit there with the 'I'm an incredible philosopher' look.

Posit an unfounded explanation and look for the people who like that answer.

Scorn everyone else as nonbelievers.

Or vice versa.