Permit to build in Grafton?

[Russell Kanning]

Makes sense to me......especially when you are just fixing up old places.

[president]

WRONG!!!
Where were you in March?  The BAD PEOPLE of the Town of Grafton attempted to adopt a ZONING ORDINANCE in response to my challenge a few months before (adopt Zoning if you don't want us to take charge of the Town Government), and the GOOD PEOPLE of the Town of Grafton voted it down!

Too bad you don't know what you are talking about.
I was in Grafton voting. Where were you?
Did you see the ballot?
I did. There was no attempt to adopt a ZONING ORDINANCE on the ballot in march. Who feeds you this shit? There was a question asking if the planning board should develop a zoning ordinance that would be voted on the next year. It failed

There was also a quesion asking if the planning board should be abolished, which would also get rid of the ZONING ORDINANCES after 2 years. It failed.

All you have done here is quote the Statute (RSA) that gives the Town the authority to enact Zoning Ordinances, and in fact this proves my point, since it says that it is a ZONING ORDINANCE - IF ENACTED - that allows a Zoning Board to regulate and restrict what may be built on the land after it is SubDivided.  Since (despite what you claim) the Town of Grafton has NOT adopted any Zoning Ordinance that restricts what may be built on a lot, the Town of Grafton Board of Selectmen has no authority whatsoever to say how many structures may be built on a Lot, or how many people may live on that Lot.

Even when a Zoning Ordinance has been adopted (like the minimal one that was in effect in Unity until 2005, ask Mary Gere), if it does not specifically give the Town the right to restrict a certain aspect of Building on Lots, it does not have that authority until the Zoning Ordinance is AMENDED - by a Vote of the Townspeople!!!  And we know that the Good People of Grafton are NOT going to approve any such thing.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIV/675/675-3.htm

675:3 Method of Enactment in Certain Towns and Village Districts. ?
I. Any town not operating under the town council form of government, or any village district which is specifically authorized by law to enact a zoning ordinance, shall establish and amend a zoning ordinance, historic district ordinance, or building code upon the affirmative vote by ballot of a majority of the legal voters present and voting on the day of the meeting, as provided in paragraph VII. Any proposed zoning ordinance, as submitted by a planning board or any amendment to an existing zoning ordinance as proposed by a planning board, board of selectmen or village district commission shall be submitted to the voters of a town or village district in the manner prescribed in this section.

The people of Grafton did vote on the ZONING ORDINANCE back in the 1970's. The 2 acre minimum lot size is a ZONING ORDINANCE according to NH law.

What part of this do you not understand?

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIV/674/674-16.htm

Zoning
Section 674:16
    674:16 Grant of Power.
    I. For the purpose of promoting the health, safety, or the general welfare of the community, the local legislative body of any city, town, or county in which there are located unincorporated towns or unorganized places is authorized to adopt or amend a zoning ordinance under the ordinance enactment procedures of RSA 675:2-5. The zoning ordinance shall be designed to regulate and restrict:
...
       (b) Lot sizes, the percentage of a lot that may be occupied, and the size of yards, courts and other open spaces;
...

How are you defining ZONING ORDINANCE?

[zackbass]

All you have done here is quote the Statute (RSA) that gives the Town the authority to enact Zoning Ordinances, and in fact this proves my point, since it says that it is a ZONING ORDINANCE - IF ENACTED - that allows a Zoning Board to regulate and restrict what may be built on the land after it is SubDivided.  Since (despite what you claim) the Town of Grafton has NOT adopted any Zoning Ordinance that restricts what may be built on a lot, the Town of Grafton Board of Selectmen has no authority whatsoever to say how many structures may be built on a Lot, or how many people may live on that Lot.

Even when a Zoning Ordinance has been adopted (like the minimal one that was in effect in Unity until 2005, ask Mary Gere), if it does not specifically give the Town the right to restrict a certain aspect of Building on Lots, it does not have that authority until the Zoning Ordinance is AMENDED - by a Vote of the Townspeople!!!  And we know that the Good People of Grafton are NOT going to approve any such thing.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIV/675/675-3.htm

675:3 Method of Enactment in Certain Towns and Village Districts. ?
I. Any town not operating under the town council form of government, or any village district which is specifically authorized by law to enact a zoning ordinance, shall establish and amend a zoning ordinance, historic district ordinance, or building code upon the affirmative vote by ballot of a majority of the legal voters present and voting on the day of the meeting, as provided in paragraph VII. Any proposed zoning ordinance, as submitted by a planning board or any amendment to an existing zoning ordinance as proposed by a planning board, board of selectmen or village district commission shall be submitted to the voters of a town or village district in the manner prescribed in this section.

The people of Grafton did vote on the ZONING ORDINANCE back in the 1970's.

How do you know that?  Everything anyone else has EVER seen says that they have NEVER enacted a Zonning Ordinance - which, by State Law, must be passed by popular Vote of the Voters of the Town affected.

The 2 acre minimum lot size is a ZONING ORDINANCE according to NH law.

You are DEAD WRONG.  State Law says clearly that THERE IS NO ZONING ORDINANCE UNLESS THE VOTERS PASS ONE.  And when they DO pass one, THEY are the ones who by that Vote have decided what it consists of; there is NO STATE ZONING ORDINANCE.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIV/674/674-16.htm

Zoning
Section 674:16
    674:16 Grant of Power.
    I. For the purpose of promoting the health, safety, or the general welfare of the community, the local legislative body of any city, town, or county in which there are located unincorporated towns or unorganized places is authorized to adopt or amend a zoning ordinance under the ordinance enactment procedures of RSA 675:2-5. The zoning ordinance shall be designed to regulate and restrict:
...
       (b) Lot sizes, the percentage of a lot that may be occupied, and the size of yards, courts and other open spaces;
...

How are you defining ZONING ORDINANCE?

A ZONING ORDINANCE, in the case of a Selectmen type Town Government, is something that is passed by the Voters of the Town.  No Planning Board, and no Board of Selectmen, can enact any such Ordinance or any Regulation thereunto pertaining; ONLY THE VOTERS can do that, and they have rejected it!!!!
I already cited that:
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIV/675/675-3.htm

675:3 Method of Enactment in Certain Towns and Village Districts. ?
I. Any town not operating under the town council form of government, or any village district which is specifically authorized by law to enact a zoning ordinance, shall establish and amend a zoning ordinance, historic district ordinance, or building code upon the affirmative vote by ballot of a majority of the legal voters present and voting on the day of the meeting, as provided in paragraph VII. Any proposed zoning ordinance, as submitted by a planning board or any amendment to an existing zoning ordinance as proposed by a planning board, board of selectmen or village district commission shall be submitted to the voters of a town or village district in the manner prescribed in this section.

[zackbass]

The people of Grafton did vote on the ZONING ORDINANCE back in the 1970's. The 2 acre minimum lot size is a ZONING ORDINANCE according to NH law.

BullShit.

Look at http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/htmlprofiles/pdfs/grafton.pdf - it clearly shows that THERE IS NO ZONING BOARD.

And now look at http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIV/673/673-1.htm

673:1 Establishment of Local Land Use Boards. ?
  ....
    IV. Every zoning ordinance adopted by a local legislative body shall include provisions for the establishment of a zoning board of adjustment.

1.  There is no Zoning Board of Adjustment.
2.  Every Zoning Ordinance has a Zoning Board of Adjustment.
  therefore...
3. There is no Zoning Ordinance.

Q.E.D.

[zackbass]

Here is a letter I got from Mary Gere, Unity SelectPerson, on 12/9/2003:

==========================================================================
==========================================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: Gere1356@****
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 2:03 PM
Subject: Zoning et al

Hi Zack and Michael,

      As Michael went off forum with these discussions I though it was probably worth joining you both there. It is a bit off topic, but will definitely effect all of us in the free state. I have seen some real division on this issue and in a side bar had a big to-do with Mike Lorrey about it. I honestly feel that Mike L. is brainwashed into believing all the crap the "zoning Nazi's" have been peddling for years.

      I am on the ground here in NH. Have been an on and off again activist for the NHLP and have been active in my local politics for better than 10 years. Any time the word "zoning" came up our town voted it down in a big way. I feel proud that I have been a part of that action. Two years ago they put a new name on the regulations. This was with the promise that the only thing they were looking to regulate was that the town as a whole did not want a private company moving in and starting a toxic waste dump or nuclear dump. The whole town is one zone-residential/business/ agriculture. I didn't fight this one actively as I saw no harm legally in what they were doing at that point. Now we begin to see the changes.

      Background:
       Unity has had subdivision regulations for about 20 years. None of the forum talks about these. They are more rascally then the zoning in there own way, the only difference is that if you don't plan to subdivide then they don't apply. So these regulations in Unity dictated how small you can make the lots, how far from the border you can build, how many feet of road frontage are required, they specify that you can only have one residence per lot, set back requirements to water, and the lot. Well, all these previous years the planning boards had been using the subdivision regs as zoning. This is illegal, but no one complained. Subdivision is only supposed to be based on public safety: i.e. road traffic, fire hazard type things.

      My first year as a selectman, I asked the town attorney if these regulations applied to the town as a whole and he calmly read the front page "Sub-Division Regulations". There is your answer, they only apply to subdivisions. Ok, I knew this, but wanted legal opinion. The town planning board continued in this path for another 8 years. When another man was elected selectman and was also an engineer and had to deal with these boards around the state and was getting pretty fed up with their arrogant attitude and ludicrous demands he began really pushing the idea that what our planning board was doing was illegal and that if pushed the board of selectmen could not and would not defend any of their actions in court. We also would not hold up their decisions. I knew I wouldn't anyway, but now here I had an ally. Plain and simple truth was that you cannot use subdivision regulations for land use regulations. They are a separate set of laws.
      These laws are also implemented very differently. Subdivision regulations are passed without public votes by the planning board which is why they loved them so much. Hold a public hearing that no one attended and pass what ever you want without so much as a peep and it wasn't until someone was looking to subdivide that they even knew. Plus it allowed them to change things as they went. Most people don't have the finances to fight city hall.
      Zoning is passed by the voters on the ballot at your annual town meetings. Zoning is therefore harder to get but also harder to get rid of since the voters themselves put it into place. Anyone that tells you oh don't worry you just go down and get a variance is full of sh--! These ordinances are made not to give variances! And these boards get their jollies off making other people twist in their seats. It is a power trip.

      Update:
            Since I have been in town no one has challenged the subdivision regulations and most went along or didn't divide. Since the planning board finally got it through their heads that they had no zoning, even with their land use ordinance, they have been in a total panic! What will we do? How will we control growth? How can we get these stupid people to understand that this is for their own good?
(Side bar: There land use ordinance voted in by the voters was done incorrectly and therefore void so even though any private firm that wanted to come in and start a private toxic waste dump could have easily done so since the permits are through the state and the only recourse the town had was to charge them $100 a day which they could easily have added onto their tipping fees the board is in more of a panic that they don't have their "perceived" protection.)       
And since this apparent lack of control and panic over the uncontrolled growth do you know what happened?? Oh my word! There was one $350,000 + house office building built on a property already having a residence! What a horror! (Sarcasm here)
      What fluxed them here was that they were not conferred with! Can you believe the arrogance? They didn't know what these people were doing! Who cares? What business is it of these busy buddies anyway? The guy is doing everything right! He put in a septic system, approved by the state, got a foundation super insulated poured by professionals, ordered and purchased a 5 piece pre fabricated home and was having it professionally installed and for some reason these pea brains were all upset!

      Zack, I think you have the right idea about zoning and what it means to people wanting to live their own life is peace, BUT you go about it the wrong way! Please don't accost me with your famous dismissal nastiness that you have become known for. I am saying that what you feel in your heart is right. And I know from past readings of yours that you take everything personally and are tired of playing nice and not getting anywhere, but I can speak from honest to God experience that if you work with your neighbors from the perspective of what it will take away from them (not you) and what it will give to them (not yourself) that you can get through to them and get their votes going the right way. Explain that this is not just your pet project that will get thumbs down on but anything they think they might want to do in the future would also be in question. I went through my town and stopped at everyone's house that was a "nonconforming" house. That means that everyone on the edge of the road can do NOTHING to their house (even on the conforming side of it) without getting permission from some board. Since I know you traveled up this way, think back to all the houses up near the road, they are all nonconforming. If those homeowners want to change their back windows into bow windows, they have to get a variance! When people begin to see the far reaching effect these types of regulations have it is incredible the amount of support you get. Same as lets say they want to build a small cottage for their aging parents to stay close to them but still have their independence, or a camp for seasonally visiting children and grandchildren? Zoning prohibits all this. Another example I saw recently, in Mike Lorrey's backyard of Lebanon, a fellow has a small lot in a neighborhood or small lots. His lot is narrow and where it goes far back it also goes straight up. He wanted a garage, he ran into a foul of the zoning regs since it would put his building too close to the abutters property. But the neighbor was using the other side of his property and the garage wouldn't impact his place at all nor his view of the woods in between their homes. In order for this fellow to even have this "board" review his request there were hours of research, maps, plans, a questionnaire and a $500 nonrefundable fee! These are the types of things to cite with your argument, not the kill them all and let God sort them out type talk. It just makes people that otherwise wouldn't bond join forces to stop you. Move to a nice place, preferably without zoning, join some town boards to learn who is on the right side and who is on the wrong, galvanize proliberty people, that may not even know they are and then when the talk of zoning comes up you will already have your small army ready to stop it.

Mike I included you in all this as you were the one asking about zoning and the pros and cons. What kind of printing do you do? I am a nighttime supervisor of the press department at Dartmouth Printing in Hanover. Are you already in the state or planning to be soon? We do journal and magazine publications, mostly heat-set, high gloss full color but also some PMS.
       
      Hopefully my history with this stuff has some value but like they say everyone has an opinion and if this doesn't seem to fit into the queries and attitudes you were interested in just hit delete. If there is something I missed please email me back and I would be happy to correspond.

Mary already in NH and loving it
==========================================================================
==========================================================================

(Note that Selectmen and Planning Boarders do TRY to use Planning Laws as Zoning, but they will never prevail in Court.  --  ZB)


This is VERY IMPORTANT.  It is not nitpicking.  The presence or absence of an ACTUAL ZONING ORDINANCE, PASSED BY THE VOTERS, is VERY IMPORTANT to how you proceed in Grafton or any other Town whose Government has SelectPersons.
And if you DO have a Zoning Ordinance in your Town, the exact wording is important; each Zoning Ordinance has its distinct set of Rules that you and the Town must follow.

[president]

The people of Grafton did vote on the ZONING ORDINANCE back in the 1970's.

How do you know that?  Everything anyone else has EVER seen says that they have NEVER enacted a Zonning Ordinance - which, by State Law, must be passed by popular Vote of the Voters of the Town affected.

I know because I attended the Jan, 4 2005 public hearing about abolishing the planning board, have seen the ordinance, and when it was voted on, and I also attended the 2005 deliberative session.

How about you? Who gave you the info that there is no zoning ordinance in Grafton? Name some names.
Don't say everyone, because I am telling you otherwise. I keep telling you that it was passed by a popular vote of the voters of Grafton. How do you think the 2 acre min came about?

The 2 acre minimum lot size is a ZONING ORDINANCE according to NH law.

You are DEAD WRONG.  State Law says clearly that THERE IS NO ZONING ORDINANCE UNLESS THE VOTERS PASS ONE.  And when they DO pass one, THEY are the ones who by that Vote have decided what it consists of; there is NO STATE ZONING ORDINANCE.

I keep telling you the voters did pass it in the 1970's. What part of that don't you get?

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIV/674/674-16.htm

Zoning
Section 674:16
    674:16 Grant of Power.
    I. For the purpose of promoting the health, safety, or the general welfare of the community, the local legislative body of any city, town, or county in which there are located unincorporated towns or unorganized places is authorized to adopt or amend a zoning ordinance under the ordinance enactment procedures of RSA 675:2-5. The zoning ordinance shall be designed to regulate and restrict:
...
       (b) Lot sizes, the percentage of a lot that may be occupied, and the size of yards, courts and other open spaces;
...

How are you defining ZONING ORDINANCE?

A ZONING ORDINANCE, in the case of a Selectmen type Town Government, is something that is passed by the Voters of the Town.  No Planning Board, and no Board of Selectmen, can enact any such Ordinance or any Regulation thereunto pertaining; ONLY THE VOTERS can do that, and they have rejected it!!!!

So you agree with me. The town of Grafton has a Zoning Ordinance, it was passed by the voters of Grafton in the 1970's. Do I have to say that again? Was it big enough for you to see?

[president]

The people of Grafton did vote on the ZONING ORDINANCE back in the 1970's. The 2 acre minimum lot size is a ZONING ORDINANCE according to NH law.

BullShit.

Look at http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/htmlprofiles/pdfs/grafton.pdf - it clearly shows that THERE IS NO ZONING BOARD.

No shit. Did anyone say there was?

And now look at http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIV/673/673-1.htm

673:1 Establishment of Local Land Use Boards. ?
  ....
    IV. Every zoning ordinance adopted by a local legislative body shall include provisions for the establishment of a zoning board of adjustment.

Provisions for the establishment of a zoning board is not the same thing as establishment of a zoning board. You know that.

1.  There is no Zoning Board of Adjustment.
2.  Every Zoning Ordinance has a Zoning Board of Adjustment.
  therefore...
3. There is no Zoning Ordinance.

Number 2 is wrong..therefore #3 is wrong....and therefore you are wrong.
Show me where #2 is stated in the law.

But let's look at more of the RSA you just quoted:
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIV/673/673-19.htm   

673:19 Effect of Abolishing Planning Boards. ? Upon the effective date of the abolition of a planning board, all land use control activities in the municipality formerly performed by the planning board shall cease. Existing zoning ordinances shall remain in effect following the abolition date for a period not to exceed 2 years from the date of such action, but no amendment to a zoning ordinance requiring action by the former planning board shall be permitted.

So do you care to explain why the 2 acre min would stay around for 2 years after the planning board goes away?
I will tell you why. Because it is a FUCKING ZONING ORDINANCE, and it was voted on by the voters of Grafton.

[AlanM]

El Presidente died? So he is back to haunt us?  ???

[Russell Kanning]

I think two guys are arguing but I can't hear the conversation.

This could be the spookiest ghost story told at the jamboree ..... the day the troll came back from the dead.

[Lex]

I think two guys are arguing but I can't hear the conversation.

At least they are somewhat on topic. I just hope they give a final summary after they are done.

[Russell Kanning]

But how can they if they disagree?

If I was you .... I would just find a nice quiet place and ignore the bureaucrats who think they are in authority over us.
But then again .... I want freedom now.

[Fluff and Stuff]

How do you think the 2 acre min came about?

Isn't that a pretty common law?  I know that is how it works inside my country. The regulation is that if you are going to have a septic system; then you need 2 acres.

[zackbass]

How about you? Who gave you the info that there is no zoning ordinance in Grafton? Name some names.
Don't say everyone, because I am telling you otherwise. I keep telling you that it was passed by a popular vote of the voters of Grafton. How do you think the 2 acre min came about?

You are talking about the PLANNING BOARD.  They have the authority to refuse to allow anyone to SubDivide land into lots smaller than 2 acres.
THAT IS NOT ZONING.

Please re-read Mary Gere's letter.
I believe you are confusing ZONING and PLANNING.  That "Ordinance" you saw... was that, in actuality, a Warrant Article establishing the Planning Board?  And then, since the Planning Board limits Lot sizes when land is SubDivided (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIV/674/674-35.htm), you erroneously conclude that that is Zoning.  NO.  Zoning is regulation of what you do with the land AFTER it is SubDivided; Planning regulates how you may SubDivide and has no further effect AFTER you manage to Subdivide the parcel.  A Planning Board cannot control Land Use unless a Zoning Ordinance has been passed (and cannot exceed the explicit Rules laid down in that Ordinance), although it may control Lot Size WITHOUT A ZONING ORDINANCE.  Thus, as Mary Gere says, they are not allowed to sneak in Rules that have not explicitly been approved by the Voters.
You claim to have seen a "Zoning Ordinance" that was passed in Grafton in the 1970's.  It is important for us to see that please.  Does it, as you claim, prodice for the establishment of a Zoning Board of Adjustment?  I bet you $100 it does not and is therefore NOT a Zoning Ordinance.  Wanna bet?  Huh?  Bet me?

We agree that Grafton never established a Zoning Board.  Therefore if they thought they passed a Zoning Ordinance in the 1970's, it has no legal effect.  There is PLENTY of precedent in the New Hampshire Courts that, without a Zoning Board of Adjustment, no Zoning can be enforced.

[zackbass]

If I was you .... I would just find a nice quiet place and ignore the bureaucrats who think they are in authority over us.
But then again .... I want freedom now.

That hasn't been working out, has it?  Last year I got a notice saying that, if I didn't please the BTK-Killer guy who stalks our neighborhood, I would be fined $1,000 PER DAY until I mowed my grass to his satisfaction.
Innocent people have lost their homes.  People who have offered Violence to no one are being imprisoned.  We have to take charge of a Local Government (at the very least) in order to have any real protection.

The "bad" publicity that results from that first-in-history act just might give Hope to others who want FREEDOM NOW! - and they just might expand on that victory.  There is of course no chance that libertarianism will expand very far; the best goal is to expand it just enough to protect those who are already libertarians, and leave the other 99% to continue to control their neighbors - just so long as we are not those neighbors.
The effect of the "bad" publicity on the Evil 99% is unimportant; if we let the timid cause us to take those assholes into account we will never ACT.  All that matters is, are we reaching those who want FREEDOM NOW! and are willing to let their neighbors be Free?

[zackbass]

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIV/673/673-1.htm

673:1 Establishment of Local Land Use Boards. ?
  ....
    IV. Every zoning ordinance adopted by a local legislative body shall include provisions for the establishment of a zoning board of adjustment.

Provisions for the establishment of a zoning board is not the same thing as establishment of a zoning board. You know that.

You want every i dotted, okay, the Voters of Grafton never passed a Zoning Ordinance because they never passed an Ordinance that included provisions for the establishment of a zoning board of adjustment.

So here it is for you:

1.  The Voters of the Town of Grafton never passed any Ordinance with provisions for a Zoning Board of Adjustment.
2.  Every Zoning Ordinance has provisions for a Zoning Board of Adjustment.
  therefore...
3. There is no Zoning Ordinance in the Town of Grafton.


(#2 is written down for you in New Hampshire Law -
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIV/673/673-1.htm)