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Author Topic: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?  (Read 9640 times)

jaqeboy

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2014, 09:01 PM NHFT »

Here's the Facebook page for We Are Change New Hampshire: https://www.facebook.com/WeAreChangeNH

If you want to become involved, we can add you to the super secret inner circle conspirators club, aka the "planning group".

Also, should I start up the "Are Anti-conspiracy kooks hurting the freedom movement?" forum thread? Anybody in?

Looks like we will start up We Are Change New Hampshire!

Luke regaled us with stories about being the change by being the media. Esp. good was his story about hounding Michael Bloomberg, NYC mayor.

Pm me if you want to be involved with WRCNH.
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dalebert

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2014, 09:45 PM NHFT »

Also, should I start up the "Are Anti-conspiracy kooks hurting the freedom movement?" forum thread? Anybody in?

Hell. I'm already curious. Start up the straw-mans!
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Roycerson

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2014, 08:59 AM NHFT »

iirc This forum is the only place on the entire internet I have ever run into anyone who claimed that all types of weather manipulation are crazy conspiracy theory.  In the intervening years it has become a matter of public record (I think it already was, I learned it in air force weather school).  Whoever it was was adamant about it too like only a complete idiot would believe in cloud dissipation.  If knowledge is power than the people fighting "conspiracy kooks" (at least the anti weather control ones) are actively trying to deprive liberty people of power by spreading false information among them.   

I think refusal to see what is right in front of your face and extremely well-documented hurts every activity you engage in.

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Free libertarian

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2014, 09:05 AM NHFT »

It's snowing this morning.  Fucking government!!
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dalebert

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2014, 09:52 AM NHFT »

Thanx, OBAMA!
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jaqeboy

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #80 on: March 05, 2014, 10:32 AM NHFT »

I think refusal to see what is right in front of your face and extremely well-documented hurts every activity you engage in.

You got that right. There's a kind of cognitive shut-down, a self-censoring practice going on with some people... Then they follow it up with drive-by smears of anyone who brings up honest questions or posts information that is real and on the public record.

Those are the "anti-conspiracy" kooks! They are the disgusting examples of nominally "pro-liberty" men who are hurting the freedom movement.

Revisionism is the practice of discovering how, when and where the ruling class and their lapdog politicians have lied to promote their agenda. It's one of the most honorable things a man can do.

As Konkin says in the New Libertarian Manifesto, 25th Anniversary edn., p.17:

Quote
Libertarianism asked why society was not libertarian now and found the State, its ruling class, its camouflage, and the heroic historians striving to reveal the truth. Thus did Revisionist History become part of Libertarianism.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 11:34 AM NHFT by jaqeboy »
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dalebert

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #81 on: March 05, 2014, 11:04 AM NHFT »

Those are the "anti-conspiracy" kooks! They are the disgusting examples of nominally "pro-liberty" men who are hurting the freedom movement.

I resent the implied sexism here. Women can be anti-conspiracy kooks too!
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dalebert

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #82 on: March 05, 2014, 11:35 AM NHFT »

I think refusal to see what is right in front of your face and extremely well-documented hurts every activity you engage in.

You got that right. There's a kind of cognitive shut-down, a self-censoring practice going on with some people... Then they follow it up with drive-by smears of anyone who brings up honest questions or posts information that is real and on the public record.

This is a common straw-man, a tactic people resort to when failing to convince someone of a belief. If you are failing to persuade someone to believe something that you believe, you accuse that person of being close-minded or a government shill or a "gatekeeper"(?) or whatever.

Weather control is a good example. I believe in technology that can manipulate the weather to some extent in some circumstances. Present me with a certain scenario and I will come to some conclusion about how reasonable I think that is based on the evidence available. I don't know who was making the claims Roycerson mentioned but I don't think it was me.

I don't reject a claim simply because it contradicts what the government is telling me! I know very well governments are inherently prone to evil and they do all kinds of sneaky shit! I've been on this forum for years. People KNOW me.

I guess I would sum this up as a false dichotomy--the idea that you believe our detailed accounting of events or you believe the enemy's (the Feds). I don't know exactly what happened. I doubt anyone does. I bet the government is hiding something; how much, I don't know. But the very detailed scenarios I've heard from truthers don't hold water. This is ONE CASE where the broadly-believed accounting of events is far more believable, Hell--VIABLE, by comparison to something that isn't viable. And I'm not judging the viability on the basis of not believing government officials could be so evil. I've witnessed them do evil right out in the open. I'm judging it on the basis of objective reality.

If an actual government shill shows up, or someone who accepts whatever they're told without questioning it, I'll join you in questioning the motives of that person. I don't believe in 9/11 Truth (just as a for instance) because it's not believable based on the evidence.

I've had friends who believed we were visited by aliens and believed in ghosts and psychic stuph. I would love to believe in those things. They definitely make the world more interesting and ghosts give hope for some kind of after life and we all fear death. I feel like Truthers WANT desperately to believe in this stuph and it's making them heavily biased and affecting their judgment.

When I watched The God who Wasn't There, I was like "JACKPOT! This is some great ammo for showing how ridiculous Christianity is!" Turns out they were, at the very least, exaggerating some stuph, possibly worse. Here's the thing. They don't need to do that. Christianity is already absurd and silly without having to stretch such things to make their point. In the end, it just hurt the veracity of anyone who brings up those claims. I'm still agnostic/atheist-ish and I'm definitely no believer in Christianity, but when folks bring that shit up, I'm going to call them out on it. I'm on their side but it makes us look bad to use false claims. I also don't trust governments. I'm a free market ANARCHIST, for crying out loud! Me not believing in 9/11 Truth hasn't even put a dint in my hatred for governments, but it's just bullshit.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 11:42 AM NHFT by dalebert »
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Jim Johnson

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #83 on: March 05, 2014, 12:25 PM NHFT »

I am positing that people, who think that there are conspiracies everywhere, were the victims of severe embarrassment over commonly held notions that are known to be false, like the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause.  This embarrassment happened at a time in life when they were given great surety by older people around them, until the lie was revealed.  The embarrassment was compounded when the person examined the lie. 

At this point, people have to consider the other things that people have been telling them.  One has to start cross referencing what people say and link it to what other people say and/or physical proof.

Over time people divide into groups:

1)  "I will believe anything I'm told."
2)  "Everything is bullshit."
3)  "I doubt you, Give me proof."
4)  "I can make shit up and embarrass you."

These groups tend to be transitory, depending on how much evidence one needs to secure one from the embarrassment.

The security most often takes place in a group that continues the lie.

The bigger the lie, the more violently it is defended.
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jaqeboy

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #84 on: March 05, 2014, 01:00 PM NHFT »

With all due respect, the following casual statements of yours are examples of "drive-by smears", Dale. You don't name the scenario, the person postulating the scenario in question, then you smear an un-named collective of people by associating them with another un-named person presumably with an untenable hypothesis (unable to tell if it's tenable or not, given that no one or hypothesis is named).

This is a use of a variety of propaganda techniques to varying degrees, known as "ad hominem", "ad nauseum", "black-and-white fallacy", "demonizing the enemy", "fear, uncertainty and doubt", "half-truth", "labelling (using dysphemisms)", "milieu control", "name-calling", "obfuscation", "oversimplification", "pensee unique", "scapegoating", "stereotyping", "strawman", "transfer" (ref. Wikipedia article on propaganda.)

As I've explained before (and you may not have seen this explanation), the term "9/11 Truth" was an attempt at branding proposed by a marketing guy in Western Massachusetts. Whether it was a good idea or not for people who questioned the government's official story about 9/11 (a conspiracy theory, by the way) to accept or choose to be "branded" is not clear. What is clear from the research conducted by independents is that the government did not prove its conspiracy theory, but ran with it to justify a stream of wars and domestic crackdowns, which, I think it's fair to say, we all oppose in this forum.

Those who question the official theory are not all professional criminal investigators and don't have all the best techniques down pat, but even professional investigators would propose narratives that they think make sense of the crime and pursue the investigation to see if additional facts support or refute that theory. They may then revise or reject that narrative and go down different investigative paths until they find a completely cogent narrative and enough evidence to bring to a grand jury to seek an indictment of the alleged criminals. In this new information age, with crowd-sourced "open intelligence", people are free to propose a narrative that they think fits the fact pattern (people do this at the bars, barbershops and taxicabs of the world - even on online forums!). Some of these are off completely, some have bits of the truth, some may be spot-on.

The independent investigators lack the subpoena power and access to records that the "officials" have, but have still turned up amazing information from open intel sources. The thing that's new about the information age we live in is that the independent's work is open for all to view (if the researcher/investigator/theorist chooses to post it online somewhere) - that means the good, solid work and the questionable work.

Now comes the "smoke-screen" and attempts to discredit good independent research by associating it with the questionable work - this is the area where propagandists have a field day. Not only is it done casually by other independents, but officially by government agencies and propagated through media channels. Mark Crispin Miller and others have pointed out the official policy of the CIA towards independent researchers of the JFK assassination, as stated in their 1 April 1967 memo, essentially instructing their media agents to smear researchers (such as attorney Mark Lane) by calling their work "conspiracy theory" - I believe this is the genesis of the current common "drive-by smear" technique. Please correct me if you find an earlier usage of the technique.

I think one of the things that libertarians pride themselves on is their resistance to propaganda, and the quest for truth burns in them. We proudly seek the truth and slough off all petty abuse for seeking the truth.


...But the very detailed scenarios I've heard from truthers don't hold water

...I feel like Truthers WANT desperately to believe in this stuph and it's making them heavily biased and affecting their judgment.

...Me not believing in 9/11 Truth hasn't even put a dint in my hatred for governments, but it's just bullshit.

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MaineShark

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #85 on: March 05, 2014, 04:06 PM NHFT »

I am positing that people, who think that there are conspiracies everywhere, were the victims of severe embarrassment over commonly held notions that are known to be false, like the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause.  This embarrassment happened at a time in life when they were given great surety by older people around them, until the lie was revealed.  The embarrassment was compounded when the person examined the lie.

Actually, most folks who believe in these sort of conspiracy theories have one thing in common: they used to be direct participants in - or heavy supporters of - the government.

You and I know that the government is able to commit great evil because individuals are willing to support it, and do the actual acts of evil.  Someone who once was a participant or supporter, who then realizes that what the government is doing is evil, has to face the fact that their choices made that evil possible, and it takes a heavy dose of integrity to admit that.  Or, they can bury their heads in the sand and refuse ot accept responsibility.  Conspiracy theories are one of the popular ways to do that, for those without the integrity to admit their responsibility.  If a massive conspiracy is making sure that these things happen, then it doesn't matter if any given cog is removed from the machine, because the all-powerful conspiracy will just find a replacement cog, adjust plans, and make sure that the evil things still happen.  No cog bears any personal responsibility, because the evil is being directed by a conspiracy which will brook no failure.

That's why the conspiracy theories are always outlandish and totally impossible in the real world.  The conspiracy has to be so overwhelmingly powerful that no one could have stopped it, so it has to be based upon an idea that is impossible absent these impossible feats by the conspirators.

Insisting upon physically-impossible things is not a bug; it's a feature.  It helps assure the believer that the conspiracy posesses powers which cannot be defeated, so his own personal participation is irrelevant.  That lets him bury his head firmly in the sand and avoid all acceptance of responsibility.

Those who question the official theory are not all professional criminal investigators and don't have all the best techniques down pat, but even professional investigators would propose narratives that they think make sense of the crime and pursue the investigation to see if additional facts support or refute that theory. They may then revise or reject that narrative and go down different investigative paths until they find a completely cogent narrative and enough evidence to bring to a grand jury to seek an indictment of the alleged criminals.

Really?  So, please point to folks who are "investigating narratives" that are actually possible?  Things like government officials knowing that terrorists intended to fly planes into the WTC, and hiding that.  Or maybe helping to train those terrorists.  Or possibly actually instructing them to do so.

Those are narratives which place the blame with the government, but which are actually within the realm of reason.  Surely, some of your "investigators" must be investigating such things, rather than looking for and fabricating "evidence" to support a particular fantasy story.  Any of them?  Or is it none of them, because none of them are actually interested in looking for truth?
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dalebert

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #86 on: March 05, 2014, 04:25 PM NHFT »

Jack, you're helping to make my point. 9/11 Truth has a certain image because of the very loud voices that most people hear making ridiculous claims that aren't supported by the evidence. There's not even any reason for you to feel that the thread title is directed at you. If you're just asking legitimate and reasonable questions, you're not one of the "kooks" referenced. That would actually put you in my camp. Welcome, brother!

If you want to change the image that people have of truthers, help to police the movement from within. Call out the Alex Jones drones. Call someone out when they start talking about thermite and controlled demolitions. Maybe you're doing that already. If so, kudos to you.

I gave the analogy of The God Who Wasn't There. I was referencing incorrect claims made by that movie until a fellow ATHEIST pointed me to some facts that effectively disputed it. Now I will do the same when I hear someone on my own side reference those claims because it makes our movement stronger when we can admit our mistakes and show that we're the open-minded ones who are actually seeking truth instead of just trying to win an argument or make the other side look stupid.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 04:27 PM NHFT by dalebert »
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Jim Johnson

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #87 on: March 05, 2014, 04:41 PM NHFT »

I am positing that people, who think that there are conspiracies everywhere, were the victims of severe embarrassment over commonly held notions that are known to be false, like the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause.  This embarrassment happened at a time in life when they were given great surety by older people around them, until the lie was revealed.  The embarrassment was compounded when the person examined the lie.

Actually, most folks who believe in these sort of conspiracy theories have one thing in common: they used to be direct participants in - or heavy supporters of - the government.

You and I know that the government is able to commit great evil because individuals are willing to support it, and do the actual acts of evil.  Someone who once was a participant or supporter, who then realizes that what the government is doing is evil, has to face the fact that their choices made that evil possible, and it takes a heavy dose of integrity to admit that.  Or, they can bury their heads in the sand and refuse ot accept responsibility.  Conspiracy theories are one of the popular ways to do that, for those without the integrity to admit their responsibility.  If a massive conspiracy is making sure that these things happen, then it doesn't matter if any given cog is removed from the machine, because the all-powerful conspiracy will just find a replacement cog, adjust plans, and make sure that the evil things still happen.  No cog bears any personal responsibility, because the evil is being directed by a conspiracy which will brook no failure.

That's why the conspiracy theories are always outlandish and totally impossible in the real world.  The conspiracy has to be so overwhelmingly powerful that no one could have stopped it, so it has to be based upon an idea that is impossible absent these impossible feats by the conspirators.

Insisting upon physically-impossible things is not a bug; it's a feature.  It helps assure the believer that the conspiracy posesses powers which cannot be defeated, so his own personal participation is irrelevant.  That lets him bury his head firmly in the sand and avoid all acceptance of responsibility.

Those who question the official theory are not all professional criminal investigators and don't have all the best techniques down pat, but even professional investigators would propose narratives that they think make sense of the crime and pursue the investigation to see if additional facts support or refute that theory. They may then revise or reject that narrative and go down different investigative paths until they find a completely cogent narrative and enough evidence to bring to a grand jury to seek an indictment of the alleged criminals.

Really?  So, please point to folks who are "investigating narratives" that are actually possible?  Things like government officials knowing that terrorists intended to fly planes into the WTC, and hiding that.  Or maybe helping to train those terrorists.  Or possibly actually instructing them to do so.

Those are narratives which place the blame with the government, but which are actually within the realm of reason.  Surely, some of your "investigators" must be investigating such things, rather than looking for and fabricating "evidence" to support a particular fantasy story.  Any of them?  Or is it none of them, because none of them are actually interested in looking for truth?

I don't believe that contact with the Government is key: it's an exacerbation, in that parents are replaced by the Government as the source of deception.

As you have said, most of them are not looking for the truth.

The Truther mentality is a defensive mechanism that has to have developed at a younger age. 
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Tom Sawyer

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #88 on: March 05, 2014, 10:39 PM NHFT »

Obviously Johnson is a Shape Shifter spreading disinformation...
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Free libertarian

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Re: Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
« Reply #89 on: March 06, 2014, 09:02 AM NHFT »

^^^ Have you ever noticed sometimes in really bright sun, his eyes get all squinty ? Almost lizard like.  He tries to hide it, but I've seen it.  ...and don't forget the robes, sometimes he wears robes.
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