When does life begin?

[KBCraig]

I have already stated my belief on when life begins, that being when the being is "Aware" or "knows".
Existence, which is what I refer to as "unknowing life", probably begins when the fetus reaches the stage of being viable outside the womb.

Let me tell you a little story about Helen Keller, who, of course, was born deaf and blind.
She was once asked to describe her life before Anne Sullivan managed to communicate with her. She said she lived, prior to that time, "in a swirling vortex". She further said something to the effect that she had no knowledge of life until she achieved the ability to communicate, that without communication, life was a concept she did not understand.
In my view, she "existed" until she became "knowing".

While she was in that "swirling vortex", did she not have the right to life? Would killing her have been no more serious than shooting a pumpkin?

What other living human beings do you feel do not have the right to live? Are there other classes of people for whom killing them would not be murder?

[Lex]

I believe you've said you've been a father for just over two months. If your wife decided she didn't want to be a mother any more, and raised a knife to your baby, would you stop her? Would stopping her be the initiation of force, or a defense against force? Your infant is still totally dependent on others, no less so than when in the womb. What difference is there in ending that baby's life now, versus three months ago? Or a year from now, versus 10 months ago?

She can leave the baby to me. If she proactively kills the baby without just leaving it to fend for itself (where I would step in to take care of it) then she is commiting murder.

[AlanM]

I have already stated my belief on when life begins, that being when the being is "Aware" or "knows".
Existence, which is what I refer to as "unknowing life", probably begins when the fetus reaches the stage of being viable outside the womb.

Let me tell you a little story about Helen Keller, who, of course, was born deaf and blind.
She was once asked to describe her life before Anne Sullivan managed to communicate with her. She said she lived, prior to that time, "in a swirling vortex". She further said something to the effect that she had no knowledge of life until she achieved the ability to communicate, that without communication, life was a concept she did not understand.
In my view, she "existed" until she became "knowing".

While she was in that "swirling vortex", did she not have the right to life? Would killing her have been no more serious than shooting a pumpkin?

What other living human beings do you feel do not have the right to live? Are there other classes of people for whom killing them would not be murder?

You are becoming a gigantic boor with your continued insistence that I want to kill someone. I do not. Kindly refrain from your obnoxious moral certaintude about what others will, or won't do.

[KBCraig]

I believe you've said you've been a father for just over two months. If your wife decided she didn't want to be a mother any more, and raised a knife to your baby, would you stop her? Would stopping her be the initiation of force, or a defense against force? Your infant is still totally dependent on others, no less so than when in the womb. What difference is there in ending that baby's life now, versus three months ago? Or a year from now, versus 10 months ago?

She can leave the baby to me. If she proactively kills the baby without just leaving it to fend for itself (where I would step in to take care of it) then she is commiting murder.

How is this different from 2-1/2 months ago?

[Lex]

I have already stated my belief on when life begins, that being when the being is "Aware" or "knows".
Existence, which is what I refer to as "unknowing life", probably begins when the fetus reaches the stage of being viable outside the womb.

Let me tell you a little story about Helen Keller, who, of course, was born deaf and blind.
She was once asked to describe her life before Anne Sullivan managed to communicate with her. She said she lived, prior to that time, "in a swirling vortex". She further said something to the effect that she had no knowledge of life until she achieved the ability to communicate, that without communication, life was a concept she did not understand.
In my view, she "existed" until she became "knowing".

While she was in that "swirling vortex", did she not have the right to life? Would killing her have been no more serious than shooting a pumpkin?

What other living human beings do you feel do not have the right to live? Are there other classes of people for whom killing them would not be murder?

The "right to live". I never thought I would hear someone saying that on these boards. Do you realize just how much baggage that caries?

To provide for the "right to live" we have to have free health care and welfare. When push comes to shove is that what you will be advocating? That we should all sacrifice our individual freedoms to provide everyone with the "right to live"?

The whole "right to live" concept is the core of socialist ideology.

[KBCraig]

You are becoming a gigantic boor with your continued insistence that I want to kill someone. I do not. Kindly refrain from your obnoxious moral certaintude about what others will, or won't do.

I have not said you want to kill anyone. I have quoted you saying that it's none of your business if someone kills someone else, and that killing individuals without "knowing awareness" is somehow different from killing those who are knowing, and aware.

[Lex]

I believe you've said you've been a father for just over two months. If your wife decided she didn't want to be a mother any more, and raised a knife to your baby, would you stop her? Would stopping her be the initiation of force, or a defense against force? Your infant is still totally dependent on others, no less so than when in the womb. What difference is there in ending that baby's life now, versus three months ago? Or a year from now, versus 10 months ago?

She can leave the baby to me. If she proactively kills the baby without just leaving it to fend for itself (where I would step in to take care of it) then she is commiting murder.

How is this different from 2-1/2 months ago?

Because the baby is inside her, the only way she can exercise her right to her own body is to expell the baby from her body. At which point I suppose there are ways to continue to keep the baby alive but it would be torture for the baby and it would probably be better to end its life.

[KBCraig]

The "right to live". I never thought I would hear someone saying that on these boards. Do you realize just how much baggage that caries?

It carries none of the socialist baggage you listed. The right to live is the right to not be killed, to not have force initiated against you, to not have your life taken from you. Every human being has that right.

Kevin

[Lex]

NOBODY has a right to live, we only have the right to not be harmed.

If a baby cannot survive on its own then you cannot force someone to take care of it, thus it will die.

[Lex]

The "right to live". I never thought I would hear someone saying that on these boards. Do you realize just how much baggage that caries?

It carries none of the socialist baggage you listed. The right to live is the right to not be killed, to not have force initiated against you, to not have your life taken from you. Every human being has that right.

I think you need to do some more reading. The difference between having the right to live and the right to not be harmed is so important that I can't define it here in one post but I'm sure that if you think about it you will see how important that difference is.

[Lex]

To get you started:

http://www.mises.org/rothbard/ethics/twenty.asp

[AlanM]

Quote from Kevin: The question was, "when does life begin?" You took the position that until an infant was born and the umbilical cord was cut, then killing it was perfectly acceptable.

I never said that killing it was perfectly acceptable, you said I did. I have consistently maintained that it is the woman's decision not mine. I have also said that I would not choose an abortion if Iwere in the woman's position.

[KBCraig]

Quote from Kevin: The question was, "when does life begin?" You took the position that until an infant was born and the umbilical cord was cut, then killing it was perfectly acceptable.

I never said that killing it was perfectly acceptable, you said I did. I have consistently maintained that it is the woman's decision not mine. I have also said that I would not choose an abortion if Iwere in the woman's position.

By maintaining that someone has the right to kill the child, even though you would not do so, you are maintaining that that to do so is acceptable. You can't have it both ways.

Kevin

[AlanM]

Quote from Kevin: The question was, "when does life begin?" You took the position that until an infant was born and the umbilical cord was cut, then killing it was perfectly acceptable.

I never said that killing it was perfectly acceptable, you said I did. I have consistently maintained that it is the woman's decision not mine. I have also said that I would not choose an abortion if Iwere in the woman's position.

By maintaining that someone has the right to kill the child, even though you would not do so, you are maintaining that that to do so is acceptable. You can't have it both ways.

Kevin

Have it your way, Kevin. I am done with this subject.

[cathleeninnh]

I think that's about all I can take as well. It has been interesting. If anyone is interested, I am leaning with Lex here. Just realize that I am a woman with relevant life experiences that influence me.

Cathleen