what is a fair tax?

[GT]

So you?d be find with her walking away from your murder free as a bird?

And what percentage of murders are actually solved by the local police? What if, instead of the pool guy, she hooked up with say the evidence room cop at the local PD?

[lildog]

Lildog, ultimately your responce is a socialist one.

I fully acknowledge that when it comes to community level protection that that approach is socialistic in nature and I accept that.  This is one of the areas where I lean more toward being a constitutionalist then a libertarian in my views.

If you look at the way our founding fathers set up this country, they put the majority of it on individual responsibility but they also acknowledged the need for a government and the need for some community services.  Some of those services over time and with new inventions that came up along the way are no longer necessities as they were when this country was founded (such as the need for a post office since letters were the ONLY way to communicate back then).

But I digress? we have started down that road I hoped to avoid which is discussing the validity of where the tax dollars are being spent.

[cathleeninnh]

How can we not discuss where the dollars go if that is relevant to fairness? I think a fair tax is one where there is a clear relationship between what you pay and what you get. If property tax pays for schools, then is it fair for a landed small family to pay many times more than the hard working Mormon with 7 kids? No relationship, means unfair.At least to me. A lot of times a head tax makes more sense to me.

Cathleen

[AlanM]

User fees. You use it, you pay for it.
No monopolies.

[lildog]

I agree that it is more important to try to keep taxes low than it is to find a "fair" tax. That's why its important to try to have as few types of taxes as possible. Fewer tax types makes it easier to watch the bastards.

Very well said!  Not to mention you bring up a point I?ve said in conversation a number of times? if many of those people who turn to the government for little serves here and there that the government has no business being in (such as forced charities) saw how much the government actually takes from the average person total there would be a massive revolt in this country.

I had this conversation with my parents soon after I moved to NH and they were shocked that my property taxes where so high (actually though when you look at what my home is appraised at vs. theirs my house is much higher but they weren?t considering that).  I pointed out to them that NH has no sales or income taxes and started looking at what they pay in income and sales taxes.  My parents quickly realizes that they pay a much higher percent of their annual earnings then I do but since it?s broken up in so many different ways they didn?t realize just how much is being take from them.

In fact if the free state project wants to quickly gain more members they should go state by state looking for volunteers to log ALL the taxes they pay then add them up and show what a random person pays each year to the government (We?re talking all levels added up here) you?d have people banging on the door to join up the fight.  Think about it, if you live in a state like MA or NY add up your property tax bill, income taxes, sales taxes, car registration, cost of stamps, any fees like hunting licenses etc and just look at what is taken from you.  And if you really want to depress yourself, add up your share of costs for services you actually use and don?t pay for directly such as buying stamps to use the post office.  For instance, say you use the town library (even if it?s only once every couple months) take the town?s library budget and divide it by whatever the offset is between residential and commercial property tax (for example in Merrimack residents pay 49% of the total budget) then divide by the number of homes in your town.  Look at the difference between what you are paying and what you actually use from the government.  But alas, I?m preaching to the choir here.

[Eli]

I think taxes on corporations might be legitimate.  As corporations are a protected class, a public entity and owe their existence to government.  Of course I am dubious that allowing corporations to exist, as a protected class,  is fair either.

[Dreepa]

hard working Mormon with 7 kids?

or the Roman Catholic with 7 kids.

[president]

hard working Mormon with 7 kids?

or the Roman Catholic with 7 kids.

Just because someone has a bunch of kids does not mean they use the public school system.

A head tax on minors would be taxation without representation, unless you let minors vote, or give the gardian that vote.

[lildog]

hard working Mormon with 7 kids?

or the Roman Catholic with 7 kids.

Just because someone has a bunch of kids does not mean they use the public school system.

A head tax on minors would be taxation without representation, unless you let minors vote, or give the gardian that vote.

What?s being discussed isn?t a head count as much as a user fee.  People who have kids pay for the services those kids use.

Unfortunately this is a battle that will NEVER be won in our life times? the government pays for education and that isn?t going to change.  I?d at least like to see parents (and I?m speaking as a parent here) pay for non-educational activities such as extra curricular sports.

One battle I think would be winnable in our lifetime that would help tenfold is to at least get the government out of running education? they want to pay for it, fine let them.  But let?s open the market to real competition.  This will drive costs down and quality up as schools would need to compete for our dollars.  Then the government can turn around and look to see what the average cost is and cut each family a check for that amount per kid (which would be a lot less then we?re spending now) and they could use that money any way they see fit for their kids education.  If you want a better school you pay the extra.  You want a very cheap school and use the extra for tutors and extra books? fine!  Anyway you look at it, it would be a vast improvement over where we are now.

Just look at colleges, we have some of the best in the world? why, because they have to compete to get your dollars.

[Dreepa]

I think that for certain items as user tax.
That would be the fairest.

I think that a national sales tax would also be better than income tax.

If you don't buy a lot of stuff then you don't get taxed.

[Pat McCotter]

I just finished reading Neil Boortz and John Linder's book "The Fair Tax Book." OK but I don't see the government keeping their hands out of the batter and trying to "fix" it. Also, the prebate idea leaves a bad taste in my craw. You have to register with the remnants of the tax system to get it. The government just wants to know who and where we are.

[KBCraig]

I just finished reading Neil Boortz and John Linder's book "The Fair Tax Book." OK but I don't see the government keeping their hands out of the batter and trying to "fix" it. Also, the prebate idea leaves a bad taste in my craw. You have to register with the remnants of the tax system to get it. The government just wants to know who and where we are.

Boortz and Linder have gone beyond disingenous, straight into outright dishonesty when they claim the Fair Tax will "eliminate the IRS". So, okay, you change the name to "Tax Prebate Accounting Service"... it's still going to be just as big and have just as much control over your money. No solution is workable so long as the government gets their hands on your money before you do, then gets to decide how much of it you get back.

I can't imagine any libertarian or smaller-government advocate embracing putting the entire nation on welfare via monthly "prebate" checks. Those who have fallen for the Fair Tax plan apparently got all giddy when they heard "eliminate the IRS", and stopped critiquing the plan at that point.

Kevin

[Bill Henderson]

A fair tax is just a ploy by those rich Republicans to pay less taxes. This fair tax that Bortz talks about will harm the lower and middle class, and help people like myslef earning in the top braket.

[Pat McCotter]

But if you buy secondhand it won't be taxed! We're just going to tax NEW items!

[Lloyd Danforth]

OK, I'll play.

If you pay for something you use, it is a fee, not a user tax.

If you accept  obscene federal spending, than the 'Fair Tax' is probably better than all of the taxes it replaces.

If you accept the existance of government and believe it's sole function is to protect citizens and all citizens get equal protection, than the only fair tax would be a head tax.  The cost of providing protection divided by the number of people. Individual pays X, family of 5 pays 5X.