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Author Topic: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement  (Read 5878 times)

Russell Kanning

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2014, 11:21 AM NHFT »

I probably have only met 10 people who imagined that they were at woodstock.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2014, 10:10 PM NHFT »

JP says they've confused him with another Matthew Phillips, purposefully, and that they are working with his soon-to-be-ex wife to libel him.

I don't believe everything JP says without proof, but I certainly don't believe a bunch of haters like the anonymous bloggers at Stop Free Keene.

JP is a great Cop Blocker, though he may not be a libertarian, he's been stellar at de-escalating conflict in the streets of Keene, and he's always been honest in his dealings with me.

I didn't like what happened between him and Dale, but he did apologize after getting feedback from the community.  He previously had threatened to sue the KAC, but now he's a member.  He's learning and improving over time - people can change, can't they?

I'd caution anyone from taking SFK's blog's word on anything.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2014, 10:26 PM NHFT »

We have withdrawn our participation in Keene activism because of the self promotion at the expense of the truth. There have been a number of questionable characters promoted to the wider audience as activists of note, only later to find out that people knew of them to be a problem and said nothing.

Just recently I interacted with a family on the Free State Project forum. They loved the Tour de Shire, Exploring the Free State, New Hampshire, Grafton Apple Festival 2012 video They asked me about "family friendly" places to consider to move to. The bitch of it is that I feel reluctant to suggest Keene, which kind of sucks for us.

Huh, well, that's a shame.  JP has kids and the new family in town, Steven and Amber Daves also have kids and Steven has been out Cop Blocking with JP on a number of occasions.  Keene is a fine place for activists with families.  Free State Project early mover Jessica Bryant also has kids and she's moving in with JP.  Maybe he also has her fooled, but JP has come a long way of earning the respect of many, despite being accused of being a fed early on (which is a big problem in this movement for the new guy).

Curious, who are the questionable characters promoted as activists of note later found to have been known in advance to be a problem? 

Thanks in advance for the feedback.
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KBCraig

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2014, 11:17 PM NHFT »


Curious, who are the questionable characters promoted as activists of note later found to have been known in advance to be a problem? 


Exhibit 1 is Cantwell, and Exhibit 2 is your post tonight about Molyneaux claiming that selling loosies was not a victimless crime.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2015, 04:32 PM NHFT »

What does Molyneux have to do with Keene?

Cantwell is an activist of note in Keene.  You can agree or disagree with his approach, but by no means is everyone in Keene of a hive mind in support of him. 
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Tom Sawyer

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2015, 05:24 PM NHFT »

JP says they've confused him with another Matthew Phillips, purposefully, and that they are working with his soon-to-be-ex wife to libel him.

I don't believe everything JP says without proof, but I certainly don't believe a bunch of haters like the anonymous bloggers at Stop Free Keene.

JP is a great Cop Blocker, though he may not be a libertarian, he's been stellar at de-escalating conflict in the streets of Keene, and he's always been honest in his dealings with me.

I didn't like what happened between him and Dale, but he did apologize after getting feedback from the community.  He previously had threatened to sue the KAC, but now he's a member.  He's learning and improving over time - people can change, can't they?

I'd caution anyone from taking SFK's blog's word on anything.

Straight up response. Thanks.

If that isn't him then I'm wrong. Having multiple identities, often means history.

However, lots of alarms triggered makes it easy to believe. Someone who isn't a libertarian, has multiple conflicts early on... I'm not as trusting, certainly not going to run to join the same club. Maya Angelou had a quote about people showing who they are initially, and that you should listen. You can have all the folks who don't have the same values, train them, let them into your home. But the New York assholes and Boston assholes and a random mix of underage and inexperienced people antagonizing each other is not too likely to have a good outcome.

As for the self proclaimed asshole Cantwell and his ilk. Of course no one can prevent them from coming to town. However, it's poor judgement to continue to support and promote him and his message. When he turned towards Garrett Ean and said "People like you won't be around." (or words to that effect) That's a deal breaker.

Agitators have their place, but encouraging ambushing cops is outside of what is prudent. That's why the JTTF is trying to get up ya'lls ass. I saw a post Cantwell posted blaming Talley for ratting him out and thus Rich Pauls arrest. Divisive people aren't worth
any number of YouTube hits.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2015, 07:32 PM NHFT »

I couldn't disagree with Cantwell more on the topic of violence, but it's important to not ignore the viewpoint, if for no other reason than to use it as a foil to promote peace.  Cantwell's view is fairly common within the movement - I used to hold it until I was positively influenced by people like Russell.  I want to model peace to Cantwell, and by proxy, his followers.  Maybe I'll never be successful converting him, but his fans listening to FTL (he now hosts with us on Wednesdays) cannot be a bad thing.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2015, 07:45 PM NHFT »

The Peace Roundtable at Keenevention 2013, which featured Cantwell, was the most-well-attended of all the Keenevention curriculum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC1wOhWYvbw
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Tom Sawyer

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2015, 09:39 PM NHFT »

So the number of views or any metric of audience size trumps everything else. Thanks for acknowledging it.
Maybe Chris could hit you across the back with a chair when the referee isn't looking, that should whip up the crowd.  ;D

Several good people have been traded for the one blowhard.  I've had multiple people that considered you their friend express these things to me. Hubris is thinking you have the right path when people you trust are telling you otherwise.

I'm not interested in attacking the activism that some have chosen. I just wish they wouldn't spew so much of a cloud of family repellent.



Oh I keep forgetting, Happy New Year.  ;D :)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 10:03 PM NHFT by Tom Sawyer »
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FTL_Ian

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2015, 10:21 PM NHFT »

Tom, I don't make money at Keenevention - the size of the audience is small in general and I release everything we do on-stage at the event free online.  I shared that with you as an example that people are VERY interested in the discussion about violence or peace.  We had more questions at that panel than any other and went well into overtime.

My friends should talk to me personally, if they are truly my friends, rather than behind my back.  Also, if someone wants to cut off my friendship because I am kind to people who are imperfect, then that's too bad. 
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FTL_Ian

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2015, 10:28 PM NHFT »

I didn't have Chris on that panel because I knew it would be popular - I didn't know that.  I had him on so we could have the conversation.  You and I, Tom, may know that peace is the way, but many within the movement are in favor of violence or are on the fence.  I put two advocates of peace on that panel to go up against Cantwell.  Yes, it gave him exposure, but his ideas are not foreign to many in the movement and it gave Derrick and I a chance to respond to the viewpoint of violence.  That was the point.
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Tom Sawyer

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2015, 10:53 PM NHFT »

Criticism is usually met with claims of "hand wringing" etc. People then will just stop trying. Complaining means someone still cares, if they just get fed up and stop participating that is a loss.

Tales of Cantwell's behavior toward mutual friends is one thing, thinking it doesn't matter is another. Back to the title of this thread.

My goal isn't to whip you, you do a whole lot and have a wide reaching voice. That's why I didn't name specific individuals, it's flawed logic that is at the heart of the problem.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2015, 11:56 AM NHFT »

Fair enough.  I prefer to be forgiving towards people's flaws.  I was that way with AnarchoJesse.  I'll say this about JP - I don't believe what he says  without proof.  He tells some big stories, but he's never been accused of ripping people off, and has been a big help in many ways including cleaning and caring for the KAC and being a major proponent of Cop Block. 

Cantwell is a rude character, but then again, he doesn't pretend to be anything but a crass asshole.  There's lots of good things about him (like, he's a killer activist and was a big help and did an amazing job at the bitcoin outreach booth at the county fair this year), but I understand why some wouldn't bother to look for them.  Regarding his misbehavior, like AnarchoJesse, he's gotten feedback from the community about it, for what it's worth.
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KBCraig

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2015, 04:19 PM NHFT »

"There is no such thing as bad publicity" is true, if you are only seeking recognition and fame -- or infamy, if that is as close as you can get. It's great for trolls, or for getting publicity, page clicks or radio listeners (that's not aimed at you, Ian... it's also true for your political and philosophical opposites).

There definitely is such a thing as bad publicity if you're trying to move the world in a positive direction.

The resistance to criticism mentioned by George Donnelly has had the effect of producing an echo chamber, a mutual admiration society, where the more negative feedback is generated, the more certain people are that they're on the right track. There's a difference between pissing off all the right people, and pissing off everyone except those who love to piss off everyone.

That difference is the "lack of discernment" in the thread title.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2015, 02:40 PM NHFT »

Well, that's just not the case here, Kevin.  Judging by the feedback the guys at 101 Deals thrift store have gotten from the public, there's plenty of people who are pleased that we are here.  Plus, there's all the people that have taken the time to stop by the KAC (usually during the nicer weather months) and chat us up and say nice things.

I'm not sure where George Donnelly got brought in here, but that guy is terrible about getting along with others.  I wouldn't take his advice on interpersonal relationships. 

There's no mutual admiration society in Keene.  No one here is afraid to give feedback about stuff they would have done differently or not-at-all.

It's a community of people, who aren't perfect, but most of us get along.  Part of that community is being forgiving towards people's past mistakes.  Chris Cantwell is not a monster - he's a fallible human being.  JP is not a bad guy or a fed, though he may have told some embellished stories in the past.  They are my friends and they overall do good work for liberty.  I like to look on the positive side of people.
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