More lack of discernment in the Keene movement

[FTL_Ian]

I believe he apologized for threatening you with court.

So he didn't apologize for lying, the subject that this thread is all about, and the thing that you said was in his past while personally factually knowing that he did recently. Gotcha.

JP appears to be a pathological liar, by all evidence.  I don't think he can help it.

See, if you had started off this way the rest of this wouldn't have followed.

I gave you my truthful initial response - the statement I made there is after more recent evidence (not from years ago) has come to light. 

[FTL_Ian]

JP is currently in hot water for owing people money.  No need to try to discern old claims of dishonesty, when we have some examples of questionable behavior happening now. 

These things have a way of working themselves out.  That said, he's still a good cop blocker who has done good work de-escalating conflict in the streets.

I still look on the bright side, of JP as well as Cantwell.  Neither of them are monsters.  They are flawed human beings, just like the rest of us. 

[Tom Sawyer]

I appreciate the straight up answer.

Although I'd say that both are candidates for having been compromised. Of course that's me looking from a distance. Which begs the question how can I, from a distance, figure these things out and people on the scene can't see them? Or see them and somehow the situations allowed to fester. Of course these are rhetorical questions. It's up to your folks to learn these lessons, figure it out.

We've had our share of liars and violent rhetoric folks come through here. I helped run them off. Someone, probably other than you, because dang you are wearing lots of different hats, has to step up and fill the role.

The movement attracts lots of people that nobody knows anything about. They should meet up to the standards of the previous trusted participants. Networks of friends and associates can act as the filter to help protect everyone's interests.

I'm not going to list the people that have been traded away.

[Russell Kanning]

I agree man.
Everyone is flawed .... but it makes sense to avoid, shun, call out, or even oppose some people.
Just because someone wants to join your movement, doesn't mean it will work out.

[K neth]

Embracing the Rapist!  Is that what we have here?

My local Peace Alliance has a monthly "Being Peace" discussion, usually contemplating a passage by some revered guru.  Often a division forms.  Some of us look for the divine spark in everyone, struggle in our ignorance to understand what forces motivate actions, and refuse to judge or hate anyone for what we understand them to have done.  Some look for the good and evil in everyone, are confident in their ability to discern which bad guys deserve punishment or should be cast out.  This second group becomes annoyed by and dismissive of the first group.  This has happened often enough that one guy coined the phrase "Embracing the Rapist" to describe the forgiving and loving group.  The same dynamic seems to be happening here.

I used to get my hate on for all sorts baddies.  But then I unlearned so many things that I once believed I knew.  Now I have no confidence in my ability to discern good from bad with certainty.  I'm such an idiot!  What might I have left to unlearn?

So I will fearlessly embrace the rapist, fearlessly embrace the guy who killed the rapist in retribution, and fearlessly embrace the guy who guards the cell that holds the guy who killed the rapist.  I'll even embrace the guy who took FRNs to smoke pubic hair at the KAC.

Widespread embracing is better for advancement of the freedom movement than selective condemnation based in fear.  Fear is the real enemy of freedom.  Fear empowers those who would presume to rule.

In Joy,
~K'neth

[MaineShark]

Widespread embracing is better for advancement of the freedom movement than selective condemnation based in fear.

I would agree with that.

But it omits that folks can condemn based upon things other than fear.

[Tom Sawyer]

A monastery to give refuge to troubled travelers.





An important message from the President of the New Hampshire Underground...

[dalebert]

I used to get my hate on for all sorts baddies.

I don't believe anyone has suggested hating anyone. Do we have to view things so simplistically black and white? There are billions of people in the world. I have to exercise discernment about the ones I decide to associate with. I can choose to steer clear of certain people for my own safety and other good reasons without hating them.

Tigers might try to eat me. That's just their nature. I don't hate them for it but I avoid them just out of self-interest and self-preservation. I would advise my friends to do the same. Some people have serious issues that cause their goals to run counter to your own or even cause them to be dangerous to deal with. I would also advise friends to avoid them. You're a shitty friend if you don't.

I'm a little peeved that some facts were not shared with me that seemed very relevant before I started considering doing business with J.P. That was a failure in judgment. I'm left without a sense of trust for folks involved in the Keene area liberty movement because of it and I imagine it would take quite a lot of effort and time to rebuild that trust since I don't see much sign of things changing.

[K neth]

Widespread embracing is better for advancement of the freedom movement than selective condemnation based in fear.

But it omits that folks can condemn based upon things other than fear.

It omits far more than just that.

I don't believe anyone has suggested hating anyone.

release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering

Do we have to view things so simplistically black and white?

None of this seems simple to me.

There are billions of people in the world. I have to exercise discernment about the ones I decide to associate with. I can choose to steer clear of certain people for my own safety and other good reasons without hating them.

Of course you can.  I avoid most people.  It's a struggle not to be a hermit.

I would advise my friends...

Yes.  That's good.  And it's often good to advise even strangers about disreputable types.

It seems good that "Tom" brought this up about J.P., and that we've shared these observations.  What we've learned as a result of this thread might save someone from trouble.  Does anyone need to be warned about Cantwell?  C4SS doesn't run a daycare does it.

I'm a little peeved that some facts were not shared with me that seemed very relevant before I started considering doing business with J.P.

That's understandable.  I failed when associating with him back in the summer of '13.  It seems I should have been more aware, seen the deception, investigated, learned, spread the word.  Perhaps a fear of conflict, or more likely a fear of doing something that might bring the bad opinion of new acquaintances whose good opinion I'd come to desire, but some fear must have blinded me, and I didn't see.

That was a failure in judgment.

My judgement fails soooo much.

I'm left without a sense of trust for folks involved in the Keene area liberty movement because of it and I imagine it would take quite a lot of effort and time to rebuild that trust since I don't see much sign of things changing.

Once bitten, twice shy.  That's sensible.

The point of this thread, which I've been contemplating:

you believe Ian has hurt the freedom movement by promoting the likes of JP and Cantwell on The Free Keene Blog, on Free Talk Live, and at Keenevention; you fear this is a pattern, and that Ian or others might bring still greater harm to the freedom movement by not being more careful who they associate with.

Maybe so, maybe not.

Well, now I'm thinking "not".  Difficult to see the future is.  But it seems that Ian is attempting to act from Love: embracing the rapist.  And this should have more positive effects.

I see a lot of fear here.  Fear of embarrassment.  "What will people whose opinion I value think of me when they see Cantwell being crazy, when they hear of J.P.s pretending, of Brad's diddling, and associate them as being part of MY gang?"  Fear of failure.  "I've invested a lot in this project, and it could all be ruined by one bad apple."  Fear for the safety of the children.  Fear of being cheated.  Fear of being deceived. Fear of being set up.

These things are very complex, and it's impossible to know with certainty the right path.  Looking deep inside of myself and trying to understand my fears helps me avoid being ruled by them.  Then trying to act from Love often serves as a good guide. 

I embrace the undiscerning Ian

In Joy,
~K'neth

[Tom Sawyer]

Would you trade a JP or whatever his name is (cuz we don't know) for Dalebert?

How about FTL's Cantwell for Jason Talley?

Because that is what has been done.

Mark was upset with me for making a list of how "bad" Ian is. I never used the term bad. Someone can have the traits I described and use them for good, which I think Ian mostly does.

First it was a thread about actions in Keene that suggested to me that some people had trouble discerning people's character and the likely results that might come about from that. The fake needed to be outed.

Then Ian came on as the defender. However in his defending, and I would say attempting to protect his brand, he crossed over into the domain of the trickster. Clever man that he is.

I talked about why my family no longer felt we had a place in the movement. The KAC, as an example, is kind of like a college fraternity, god bless 'em. But I've already been down the road the younger crowd is covering, I've already learned (hopefully) many of the lessons you learn along the way. And one of those is that people's character matters. Places and situations that I've experienced, personalities I dealt with, become archetypes that allow you to almost predict what the likely behavior might be.

I related how the perception of people was that FreeKeene was not really a family scene. Even having a repellent effect.

To those who don't remember because they weren't here then...
The Keene cops used to honk and wave when we had sign waves outside the IRS. Even they don't like their tax burden. I liked the divide and conquer aspect of targeting the outsider feds. The locals, mostly, didn't feel attacked.

FTL's Cantwell was the one verbally bullying the meter maid in the video used to discredit the Robin Hooders.
I can have a tendency to get loud under stress. But I have enough sense to realize that aggressively barking at a woman will not be a pretty sight. That's not the only time he has done that. He has done that to women in the movement as well.

So add to the list women traded away as well.

We now spend our efforts with a core group of Homeschoolers and others that are more family friendly. I had wanted to do a Tour de Shire video featuring Keene, but the mission of that video series was to show the moms and kids why they might want to move to the Shire. The men are the easier sell. The families need to see that there is more than getting arrested or running for office to be involved with.

[Russell Kanning]

also .... when we don't use deadly force with those we think have done wrong .... we can change our minds later and there is not much damage done.

Seems like it is always all of our jobs to protect others from dangerous people.

is that enough of a black and white statement?

plus when we don't destroy the wrongdoers .... we can possibly even forgive them down the road when they ask for it.

[MaineShark]

I see a lot of fear here.  Fear of embarrassment.  "What will people whose opinion I value think of me when they see Cantwell being crazy, when they hear of J.P.s pretending, of Brad's diddling, and associate them as being part of MY gang?"  Fear of failure.  "I've invested a lot in this project, and it could all be ruined by one bad apple."  Fear for the safety of the children.  Fear of being cheated.  Fear of being deceived. Fear of being set up.

Acknowledging that there may be a consequence as a result of some choice, and working to avoid that consequence if it is negative, is not synonymous with fear of that consequence.

If I decide to stop cutting my hair, it would simplify certain aspects of my life (and keep my head warmer in winter).  But the public at large would view me as "unkempt" and be less likely to contract with me (folks tend to want to hand five- and six-figure checks to those whom they perceive as professional, not bums, for some reason).

I don't fear that result, but since I prefer to remain in business, I choose to adhere to certain social standards which will help that happen.

If our purpose is to do more than just sit around telling ourselves how wonderful we are - if our purpose is to actually convince others to abandon hatred and oppression and embrace love and liberty - then we must consider how our choices will reflect upon that purpose.  We may still take paths which are controversial in the opinion of many or most members of that very population which we are attempting to reach (in many cases, "shaking things up" is the only way to get folks to think), but we should be doing that as a result of a consideration of as much as we can know about the situation and the potential outcomes of our decision - making a conscious choice to do so.

A lack of discernment is never a good thing.  Even when we make a choice to associate with an individual, position, or action which others find controversial, we should be doing so as a result of having done our very best to discern how that will impact our goals for the future.

Perhaps that is happening.  But it's also quite apparent that the perception is that there is a "lack of discernment."  I'd much rather associate with someone who makes a choice I might consider poor, because he carefully considered the options and reached a different opinion as to whether or not it actually was a poor choice, than with someone who does not seem to even consider the outcome of his choices.  The latter might actually, on average, make better choices due to dumb luck.  But the utter unpredictability would give me pause; there's no telling when he might suddenly make a really poor choice.

These are practical concerns for outcomes that could actually happen, not knee-jerk fear reactions.

[dalebert]

These are practical concerns for outcomes that could actually happen, not knee-jerk fear reactions.

Thank you. K neth, when you say "fear fear fear fear", you imply my decisions are based purely on an emotional response when I'm in fact making rational decisions based on whether associating with certain people actually furthers my goals or harms them.

[Tom Sawyer]

Come on Dale cut him some slack, he quotes Yoda for goodness sake.

[Russell Kanning]

it's gotta be worth something