More lack of discernment in the Keene movement

[Becky Thatcher]

Acknowledging that there may be a consequence as a result of some choice, and working to avoid that consequence if it is negative, is not synonymous with fear of that consequence.

Thank you. K neth, when you say "fear fear fear fear", you imply my decisions are based purely on an emotional response when I'm in fact making rational decisions based on whether associating with certain people actually furthers my goals or harms them.

Good points and I completely agree with both of you.  I think having discernment regarding the types of people you choose to let in to your life is a trait of a wise man, not the trait of a fearful one.

[KBCraig]

I think having discernment regarding the types of people you choose to let in to your life is a trait of a wise man, not the trait of a fearful one.

We also see the inverse at work among some: the more objectionable someone is, the more strongly he's embraced and celebrated. That is not the mark of wisdom, it's the mark of immaturity.

[Free libertarian]

I take ONE day off and see what happens?  I had hoped to be able to make a funny regarding the comment of the smoking pubic hair, but alas the time has passed.

I hate missed opportunity.  We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

[Tom Sawyer]

I take ONE day off and see what happens?  I had hoped to be able to make a funny regarding the comment of the smoking pubic hair, but alas the time has passed.

I hate missed opportunity.  We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

It's the choker Charlie!

[dalebert]

We also see the inverse at work among some: the more objectionable someone is, the more strongly he's embraced and celebrated. That is not the mark of wisdom, it's the mark of immaturity.

There was this show on MTV called Jackass...

[K neth]

Would you trade a JP or whatever his name is (cuz we don't know) for Dalebert?

How about FTL's Cantwell for Jason Talley?

Because that is what has been done.

Trade them how?  Dale, was it as simple as this?  If JP didn't exist would you still be happily living in Keene, thinking it was the greatest place in the world?

Is the diaspora of top notch freedom lovers out of Keene bad for the freedom movement?  I doubt the Manchester crowd feels that way.

Whatever it says about my own discernment of character, there were three people I spent a lot of time with and really tried to get to know, during my summer in Keene: Jason Talley, Garret Ean, and Pete Eyre--three of the finest human beings I've had privilege to associate with.  None of them would give up on freedom because Ian promoted some assholes on FTL. 

But one thing I've been having a lot of trouble not being curious about is Cantwell's claim that he got Garret kicked out of the parsonage/KAC.  I'm not the keep-in-touch type, and am completely out of the loop on this.  I can't imagine what madness would cause anyone to discern that Garret was one to be banished? O_o

K neth, when you say "fear fear fear fear", you imply my decisions are based purely on an emotional response when I'm in fact making rational decisions based on whether associating with certain people actually furthers my goals or harms them.

Dale, if someone said that they didn't want to associate with you because it didn't further their goals, that they were just making a rational decision void of any emotion, one might suspect that they were lying to themselves about their homophobia. But I have no way of really knowing what fears grip anyone else in the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night.

My list of the fears I see in this thread indicates that these are fears of my own; that I am projecting these fears into the various posts.  It speaks well of each of you who replied to say your discernment is not based in fear, showing that you engaged in some self-examination.  It's good no one here is going to threaten to sue me for slander, thinking I've accused them of cowardice.

No one has commented on the embracing-the-rapist dynamic.  Still, the replies seem to support my observation.  You champions of discernment are saying the same exact things as the lefty statists in the second group at the Peace Alliance.

Men of God make everyone feel guilty and judged

It seems impossible to speak of the path of non-judgement to anyone who has not chosen that path, without sounding holier than thou.  "I am so superior in my morals and look down disapprovingly on you lowly sinners who would dare to judge others."  Maybe it's wrong to ever bring it up in group discussions.  If so, I forgive myself.  The hardest person to stop casting judgement upon is yourself, but once done, it's very liberating.

The impasse between us ridiculous rapist embracers and the righteous discerners seems beyond reconciliation. I should probably stop annoying you and inviting dismissive comments.

Come on Dale cut him some slack, he quotes Yoda for goodness sake.

it's gotta be worth something

Yes, yes! To Russell you listen.

My words all seem worthless.  Perhaps all words are worthless.   But it seems the amusement derived from prompting the message from the pres was worth whatever nonsense I've might have typed.

An important message from the President of the New Hampshire Underground...

[Tom Sawyer]

You won't get sued for having an opinion here, well until JP registers to play here. You weren't even required to have an introduction like the Shire Society.

The Prez image was from years ago. The style of this place is such that the way to get to know people is by interacting with each other. This is the internet, an open door. We have had our share of, let's say different folks come through here. Some of my best friendships were developed here. I'm starting to get an idea of what you believe in.

"You should do that!" Was a response that Russell often had to people's ideas of what should be done. In that vane, if embracing flawed people is what you think will benefit you or what you see as the direction things should go than "You should do that!"

Jason Talley, Garret Ean, and Pete Eyre are all great activists. Here is the first video I did for the Free State effort shot at our first PorcFest before anyone trusted me. BureauCrash at PorcFest 2005

Garret Ean was obviously traded for FTL's Cantwell. By traded, I mean when you have a good friend and they are a trusted member of the group you do your activism with and a new person comes along that wants to drive them out... I've noted several instances where the NY Asshole has stated that he wanted these same trusted activists out... Talley was another one.

[dalebert]

Trade them how?  Dale, was it as simple as this?  If JP didn't exist would you still be happily living in Keene, thinking it was the greatest place in the world?

No, not that simple. If an isolated incident of poor judgment could drive me away, the Free Keene folks would have lost me a LONG time ago. This is the result of habitual behavior and clear signs that they will not be changing any time soon. I've showed far more effort and patience than is reasonably called for before moving on.

None of them would give up on freedom because Ian promoted some assholes on FTL.

Giving up on a very specific small clique of people is not "giving up on freedom".

Dale, if someone said that they didn't want to associate with you because it didn't further their goals, that they were just making a rational decision void of any emotion, one might suspect that they were lying to themselves about their homophobia. But I have no way of really knowing what fears grip anyone else in the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night.

I don't see how analogizing two completely different people makes any point at all. It's like you're appealing to the abandonment of all judgment and rational thought. It's like if I said I throw out food that has mold on it and you came back with "But would you throw out perfectly good food that isn't spoiled?" Uhm... no??? What the heck is your point?

If someone said associating with me wouldn't further their goals, I would examine the evidence they presented for this and try to decide if that was a rational conclusion or if they had some personal bias that was causing them to come to irrational conclusions. And also, because I exercise judgment about the quality of people I associate with, I have faith in my friends to see through such assholery and see this guy for what he really is.

No one has commented on the embracing-the-rapist dynamic.

K neth, while I'm no longer a practicing Quaker, my support for peaceful solutions to problems remains. I'm not sure exactly what your "embracing the rapist dynamic" entails because most of what you written has amounted to little more than a very long-winded "awe, come on guys. Be nice!" There's just no substance. But I will repeat that I'm not out to promote hate, to punish, or anything like that. I don't support prisons. I don't support the death penalty. I don't want rapists to go to jail and get raped themselves. I just want to do what it takes to prevent more rapes. Does that help you to understand where I'm coming from at all?

Still, the replies seem to support my observation.  You champions of discernment are saying the same exact things as the lefty statists in the second group at the Peace Alliance.

Unless you can tell us EXACTLY what they said, how can we possibly examine this statement for truth? It's just an vague insult and completely uncalled for in a honest discussion.

My words all seem worthless.

I would use the adjective "empty", as in devoid of substance.

Perhaps all words are worthless.

No! All statements are not of equal value just as all people are not of equal character. This is what we've trying to say--good judgment is called for!

[Free libertarian]

I am open to forgiving people, but I think it is only human that I consider the nature and /or motive of another persons indiscretion before I can forgive them.  Also, has the particular behavior that wronged me or somebody else continued ?  Did the person acknowledge their mistake is something else I consider when deciding whether or not to continue to associate with somebody. 

I also tend to forgive people more readily if I've had a previous relationship with them was a good one...maybe I'm showing my bias there. 

[Becky Thatcher]

I also tend to forgive people more readily if I've had a previous relationship with them was a good one...maybe I'm showing my bias there.

Hey ladies, Free Libertarian is getting ready to show his bias!!!  I wanna see, I wanna see!! 

[KBCraig]

I also tend to forgive people more readily if I've had a previous relationship with them was a good one...maybe I'm showing my bias there.

Hey ladies, Free Libertarian is getting ready to show his bias!!!  I wanna see, I wanna see!! 

[KBCraig]

Here is the first video I did for the Free State effort shot at our first PorcFest before anyone trusted me. BureauCrash at PorcFest 2005

Jason has stayed true. It's a shame about BureauCrash.

[K neth]

How big is that bias?

Still, the replies seem to support my observation.  You champions of discernment are saying the same exact things as the lefty statists in the second group at the Peace Alliance.

Unless you can tell us EXACTLY what they said, how can we possibly examine this statement for truth? It's just an vague insult and completely uncalled for in a honest discussion.

Dalebert, one of my best friends is a lefty statist and he watches Game of Thrones. Take that as an insult if you will.  I even know a CONSERVATIVE who watches Game of Thrones.  If that's beyond the pale for and honest discussion, discern me away.  Put me on ignore. Wait, do we even have an ignore on this forum?   

What they said was true. Just like what EVERYONE here agrees is true. 

Having discernment regarding the types of people you choose to let into your life is wise.

said over and over in different ways.

But I intended no insult before.  Peace groups are mostly lefty statists.  My intent in mentioning it was to point out that this isn't a libertarian thing.  It was certainly clumsy though, the way I said it.

I bet I know what I'd see if I went to some neocon forum and tried to discuss non-judgement.  And it would be the same thing as at a Mises circle.  Or a bible study group.

People would be annoyed by me.  People would be dismissive of what I said.  And no matter how much I stressed that it's good to avoid certain people, I'd be told over and over how sensible it is to discern which people should be shunned, disassociated, and unwelcome, as if I'd suggested they should invite a serial rapist to tea with their mother.  The dynamic is fascinating.

Words suck.  They suck all the more because they're such an amazingly useful tool, and we can learn so much from them.  It traps people in a world of words and makes seeing what is beyond words all the more difficult. 

[FTL_Ian]

Thanks for the wise words in this thread, K neth.

Jason Talley left NH because of Jason Talley.  Cantwell was not living here at that time.
Dalebert left Keene because of Dalebert.  JP was not active here at that time.

Garret has not been run off by Cantwell - he was here at the KAC tonight and multiple times this week.

As stated previously, there's plenty of discerning going on in Keene.  Some people don't like Chris, others don't like Garret, others don't like JP, some don't like me.  Some of the reasons for the disliking are good, others are petty.  Whatever.  That's just people.  They don't all get along.

Thanks for all of your concern about what's happening here.  I'd like to remind you that you are not actively involved in the community here and are merely passing judgement without experience beyond what limited information you receive from the outside-looking-in.

We've got this handled.  Please return to more productive matters.

[KBCraig]

http://knappster.blogspot.com/2015/02/celebritarian-pathos-curious-case-of.html