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"Let them march all they want, as long as they pay their taxes."  --Alexander Haig

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Author Topic: Reputation = Safe Space?  (Read 1129 times)

eglove

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Jay

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2015, 07:35 PM NHFT »

Lots of stuff is symptomatic of humans in general not wanting to face reality/truth.
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dalebert

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2015, 09:46 AM NHFT »

The analogy between safe spaces and reputation... seems a reach. Are you against people choosing who they have as friends and who they do business with and otherwise associate with? There are people I will never hire because I've heard horror stories from people I trust. How is that like a safe space?
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Jim Johnson

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2015, 11:07 AM NHFT »

The analogy between safe spaces and reputation... seems a reach. Are you against people choosing who they have as friends and who they do business with and otherwise associate with? There are people I will never hire because I've heard horror stories from people I trust. How is that like a safe space?

I'm pretty sure you're creating a safe space by shunning people you only suspect of being not worthy of your association.
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Jay

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2015, 11:33 AM NHFT »

The analogy between safe spaces and reputation... seems a reach. Are you against people choosing who they have as friends and who they do business with and otherwise associate with? There are people I will never hire because I've heard horror stories from people I trust. How is that like a safe space?

I'm pretty sure you're creating a safe space by shunning people you only suspect of being not worthy of your association.

Kinda like them white only men only clubs that used to be everywhere. Funny how things come around.
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Tom Sawyer

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2015, 11:49 AM NHFT »

Maybe eglove has threatened the echo chamber.
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Jay

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2015, 12:02 PM NHFT »

Maybe eglove has threatened the echo chamber.

Thought I just had : Cantwell never marketed his wares to people who would actually move here, just angry people who are comfortable where they are in life. That's why he was always a nuisance, and why any sane discussion about it never did and never will go anywhere.
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Jay

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2015, 12:35 PM NHFT »

To bring up one of Ethan's points...

I think fear of conflict is what eventually made Robin Hooding look like a turd and a laughing stock. By the "manger" not wanting to deal with mistakes he made with letting certain individuals do it under the official banner, instead choosing to complain about their behavior in private ad nauseam without acting, two people over a long period of time completely destroyed any hope of it ever being a positive example to show the world.

That is to say, a lot of us don't have a fear of confronting what we see as a cold and lifeless corporate entity that is the Government. But on a personal level, we have a long way to go with evolving our methods of communication...to the point of minimizing the casual lying and conflict avoidance that is part of daily life.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 03:28 PM NHFT by Jay »
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eglove

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2015, 04:06 PM NHFT »

The analogy between safe spaces and reputation... seems a reach. Are you against people choosing who they have as friends and who they do business with and otherwise associate with? There are people I will never hire because I've heard horror stories from people I trust. How is that like a safe space?

I'm talking about the perversion of this that you got to in the most recent post. First, if someone steals from your store, hang his picture up and refuse to sell. I think it a little odd if other stores copy that picture and put it everywhere it's A) overkill, and B) banning someone based on hearsay. But that's not really the point.

The point is, if you take that idea, and try to apply it socially.

  • Cantwell won't speak to me because he messed up his site after I warned him about buying some shit on Fiverr. After he lost traffic, I spoke about it and he blamed me to save face. Blocked me everywhere, refuses to speak about it, tells people I'm a "saboteur" and says he's just "choosing whom he associates with."
  • Johnson won't speak with me because I made some jokes about Cantwell and he called that fraud. Blocked, refuses to "associate" in real life, blah, blah, blah.
  • Most recently, Michael Dean has blocked me because he mentioned he has sleep apnea and I told him I started to get breathing problems in my sleep when I gained a lot of weight. He says I'm selling snake oil, don't know a damn thing, blocked, refuses to "associate" with "people like me."

This has nothing to do with reputation, but a fear of going from one disagreement to a discussion of what's going on. It's always immediate block, refuse to associate, and in some cases tell your friends not to do so either.

I'll be talking with Rich Paul later tonight about two subjects. From my notes:

Sub. 1: “This is the most perverse dynamic you've ever seen isn't it? Do what we suggest you do, go through all the trouble and do the peaceful protest and nobody's going to notice. But do what we tell you not to do -- that nobody wants you to do -- that actually hurts the very communities these folks are protesting in... oh you might be rewarded with a lot of air time, and your cause being debated, and maybe a little legislative action... that's perverse." -Dan Carlin

This isn’t about who’s right, this is about the perverseness of how these things work, and possibly how to avoid getting trapped in that system.

Sub. 2: On how libertarians build “safe spaces” for themselves, boss’ theory with friends is ~ “We can argue, insult one another, punch each other in the face, but at the end of the day we have a beer and get over it.”

This is the discussion I attempted to have on stage at PorcFest, but it got hijacked by Carla and Ian who turned it into an advertisement for the FSP. They got some cheap applause, but the  discussion afterward showed me that there are a lot of people who know exactly what I'm talking about.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 04:08 PM NHFT by eglove »
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Jay

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2015, 04:23 PM NHFT »

A sidenote: my sleep apnea went away when I stopped eating grains as part of going on low carb to lose weight. 4 years and 100lbs later, if I have a couple of donuts, some fried rice, or cereal it comes right back for about 24 hours.  I don't think it's cut and dry as losing weight, as lots of "normal" people have it. But I think allergens, even though it was not a severe reaction in my case, have a bigger role to play.

As far as social shunning goes...I think people go through a phase during their lives where they blame others, without being introspective about how they are ultimately responsible for remaining in situations that are making them unwell.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 04:26 PM NHFT by Jay »
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Tom Sawyer

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2015, 05:20 PM NHFT »

I've said it before, that it must be like what it was to be a Socialist in the 30s. A pat party line answer that every problem will be solved if you just follow our true way. And anyone that breaks the party line is to be pushed out.

I used to think I had all the answers. Even if I did (I don't) you alienate allies and future converts with the 'Let's find where we disagree and then argue to a stand still.'

Some players primary goal is to create controversy to get attention/traffic. Some players are socially ignorant and aren't the folks that others listen to for a new path.

The guy I first got deeply involved with in Libertarian circles in the late 70s had an approach that I later learned to respect (if not always follow). He would talk about one topic, correct me when I fell into error and then shut up, go onto pleasant socializing. I found that later on when I tried to do research to perhaps prove him wrong, I found out he was right. That built trust and prevented tensions from blowing us apart.

Especially among new converts there is the potential for zealotry. I was guilty of it. Sometimes I still am. If you can be open enough to take in someone else's opinion or life view you learn something and it can humble you enough to not act like an ass (guilty of this s well).

It's all about the long haul, not some flash in the pan crap.
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eglove

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2015, 05:50 PM NHFT »

I've said it before, that it must be like what it was to be a Socialist in the 30s. A pat party line answer that every problem will be solved if you just follow our true way. And anyone that breaks the party line is to be pushed out.

I used to think I had all the answers. Even if I did (I don't) you alienate allies and future converts with the 'Let's find where we disagree and then argue to a stand still.'

Some players primary goal is to create controversy to get attention/traffic. Some players are socially ignorant and aren't the folks that others listen to for a new path.

The guy I first got deeply involved with in Libertarian circles in the late 70s had an approach that I later learned to respect (if not always follow). He would talk about one topic, correct me when I fell into error and then shut up, go onto pleasant socializing. I found that later on when I tried to do research to perhaps prove him wrong, I found out he was right. That built trust and prevented tensions from blowing us apart.

Especially among new converts there is the potential for zealotry. I was guilty of it. Sometimes I still am. If you can be open enough to take in someone else's opinion or life view you learn something and it can humble you enough to not act like an ass (guilty of this s well).

It's all about the long haul, not some flash in the pan crap.

My approach has been to mirror people. Wherever their energy is, I follow. If the barber wants to talk about how the FSP seems "Pretty cool, people fighting for they believe in." My response is, "Yeah, and not just that, but fighting for others to be able to choose what works for them. Literally, what they believe in."

If a journalist lists the reason he's not a libertarian, starting with a straw-man on the definition of it, I bend his words to show he's a libertarian and send it over with a wink and a nod.

Maybe it's not perfect, but it seems to work well enough for now.

If that journalist were someone I knew personally, and called me a fraud for bending his words, I'd let it go for awhile, and catch up later. That's not unhealthy or harmful behavior. It's the opposite. Relationships will never be perfect, I don't care how isolated you are. This Molyneuvian 'against me' way of doing things at the first sign of trouble is childish and ultimately harms our ability to learn from one another and develop respect for one another.
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eglove

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2015, 05:52 PM NHFT »

Or to bring it around, as one Mizzou faculty said, this idea of "safe spaces" is not how we grow intellectually. We have to be able to push one another, air disagreements, argue. That's how we learn.
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eglove

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Re: Reputation = Safe Space?
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2015, 03:06 AM NHFT »

The results of our sit down discussion on activism.

The after discussion may have revealed some reservations I've had with NH. That my very first experience with NH was Cantwell calling me a liar and "saboteur," and it's left a bad taste in my mouth. As a doe-eyed freshman to the state, that was a much bigger deal to me than everyone else. It kind of snowballed into some nonsense with some others, but it's still not a big deal... apparently. #introspection
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