Is it time to stop paying Federal Taxes?

[Russell Kanning]

What part of this thread is unbelievable?

Evil people really are stealing money from the federal government that is supposed to go to Iraqi stuff.
Gary North really had his accounts frozen. (I have no reason not to believe him.)
I agree with Llalania that identity theft is a problem.

Do you not agree with these posts?

[lildog]

What part of this thread is unbelievable?

Evil people really are stealing money from the federal government that is supposed to go to Iraqi stuff.
Gary North really had his accounts frozen. (I have no reason not to believe him.)
I agree with Llalania that identity theft is a problem.

Do you not agree with these posts?

The part that's unbelievable is that rather then trying to fight to change or even better trying to gain representation to change the government from the inside out, your tossing your hands in the air and saying you'd rather just not support the system until they drag you away.

And not only are you not supporting the system but putting effort into not supporting it... effort that could be better directed toward CHANGE of the system.

[Russell Kanning]

But what if I don't want to be part of the system? Why can't I ignore it? What if I am always in the minority in our "representative government"? Does that mean I have no rights to oppose the majority?

Because they drag people away shows how evil the government is not how failed my methods are. I should be free to live as I choose. I choose not to run for office or vote in elections. Is that ok with you?

[president]

Because they drag people away shows how evil the government is not how failed my methods are. I should be free to live as I choose.

Should you be free to kill innocent people if you choose?
If you choose to kill innocent people, and the government drags you away, will that show how evil the government is?

[lildog]

But what if I don't want to be part of the system? Why can't I ignore it?

You can ignore it by leaving.

Like it or not this government rules the land within its borders.  But no one forcing you to stay within those borders.

I?ll have to dig around to see if I could find the story but a couple years ago I read a story that I think pertains to your point of view.

There was a guy fed up with the US Government and wanted to get away from it?s control.  He wanted out of the system.  And he didn?t want to enter a different government as he saw most others as even worse.

So he opted out all together.  He started doing research and found an island in international waters that had never been claimed so he claimed it and declared his island to be an independent country.  He put together his own government declaring his family the royal family and put together a constitution in which there were only taxes to allow for a police force to enforce a law against murder or rape and no other laws were created.  Drugs were legal, prostitution was legal, guns were legal, gambling legal etc.  Then he started contacting hotels, casinos and other businesses to try to recruit them to build within the boarders of his small country.

I?m not sure what came of his plan, but the point is no one is forcing you to stay within this system.  But as long as you are within the borders of this country, you are CHOOSING to be within this system.

What if I am always in the minority in our "representative government"? Does that mean I have no rights to oppose the majority?

Depends on what you are opposing? Does NAMBLA have the right to oppose the majority and start raping young boys?  Do serial killers have the right to oppose the majority and murder whoever they choose?

I would hope not.  There are rules that a civilized society must play by.

Does that mean you should be forced to pay for a pet project just because the majority of people voted in favor of it?  No, and that?s what needs to be changed.  But opposing that is FAR different from opposing the entire system.

Because they drag people away shows how evil the government is not how failed my methods are. I should be free to live as I choose. I choose not to run for office or vote in elections. Is that ok with you?

No because they drag people away shows that there ARE laws and there are things that cannot be done with a civilized society.  Murder, rape etc are things I would hope you see a problem with.  I WANT some level of government to help assure things like that are prevented.  Remember, your rights end where mine begin.

[Russell Kanning]

So when you steal tax money from me ..... is that infringing on my rights?

What if I don't have enough money to buy an island?

So how is the government doing in preventing murder and rape?

[lildog]

So when you steal tax money from me ..... is that infringing on my rights?

Steal money how?

The constitution allows for taxation by the government.  Unfortunately we can?t pick and choose what that taxation is used for unless we become part of the system.

What if I don't have enough money to buy an island?

The guy I read about found an unclaimed island.  That means just that, its unclaimed? hence there no need to buy it as no one owned it.  And as long as it?s within international waters it isn?t governed by any government.

Heck, can?t find an island, just buy a house boat.  If you can afford a house to live in, you can afford a boat to live in.

So how is the government doing in preventing murder and rape?

Until they find a way to read minds and catch criminals BEFORE the crime there?s no way to prevent murder and rape.  Nor did I say it was the government?s job to prevent it.

I did say it was their job to protect us, which they do by finding murderers and rapists and putting them away.

[Lloyd Danforth]

The Constitution does not allow taxing individuals, directly.  It was brought about by an amendment after two previous attempts where it was found unconstitutional.

Lildog, Have you ever read any libertarian philosophy?

Have you heard of the Zero Aggression Principal?

If so, do you agree with it?

Are you aware that all laws are, ultimatly, enforced by the initiation of force?

[Lex]

The Declaration of Independence

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
    For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
    For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
    He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

[Lex]

I don't know about you guys but I never consented to paying taxes. Why was it not okay for the British to collect taxes but it is okay for Uncle Sam to collect taxes?

[Dreepa]

Lex... you reading my other post?
or do we just think alike?

http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=2834.0

[president]

The DoI was just the propaganda of the time. It even demonizes the Indians.

[Lex]

Lex... you reading my other post?
or do we just think alike?

http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=2834.0

Haha, i hadn't read that post actually.

I was actually listening to a lecture by Robert LeFevre about the constitution where he pointed out a very important thing: Of the people who supported and signed the delcaration of independence (56 signatures) only about 5 or so supported and signed the US Constitution the rest opposed to the US Constitution.

Basically the US was made independent by the Declaration of Independence and then shortly enslaved again by the US Constitution.

[Lex]

Here is the audio that talks about the Constitution:

https://www.mises.org/mp3/lefevre/149.mp3

[FTL_Ian]

You can ignore it by leaving.

Like it or not this government rules the land within its borders.  But no one forcing you to stay within those borders.

I'm sorry, but who exactly is this "government" and how exactly did they gain authority over me?

In case you don't know, our government is allegedly supposed to exist at the consent of the governed.  I don't consent to this government.

If government is just a group of strange men and women, how to they have the ability to control all the land in America?