Is it time to stop paying Federal Taxes?

[Russell Kanning]

But what if they throw her in jail?
How do you defend property against the feds? Have you seen footage from Waco?

[lildog]

Russ, let me ask you this? what do you think your going to accomplish?

The only way this type of protest would amount to anything more then you ending up in jail and your assets taken away from you is if you had significant enough numbers of supporters doing this along with you? and I?m talking significant.  Even if you had 10,000 people nation wide (and I?m sure there are well more then that now who don?t pay federal taxes) the feds would look at you all and laugh as it one by one locks you away.  And even on a state level you?d need 10% or more of the state?s population before anything would come of it.

The only level I think you?d have a shot at truly accomplishing anything would be a town level and you?d need all your supporters all living in the same town.  THEN maybe a large enough group of people refusing to pay would force change as I doubt very much that any town would lock away a significant enough portion of its own population (although it wouldn?t surprise me if they did).

[Russell Kanning]

It does not matter how many people join me. If it is right for me to pay taxes to the Feds, then I should even if many others are not. If it is not right for me to pay Federal taxes, then I should not even if I have no support and may pay a heavy price.

I started this thread to ask people if they think they should pay taxes to the Feds.

I am also posting good reasons why not.

Besides following what God would want me to do, it is also the fastest way to succeed in this struggle. I agree with Tolstoy that individuals refusing to help evil men is the most moral and most efficient method of turning back their influence.

[tracysaboe]

That's just it Russle.

By the time, I get to NH, hopefully you'll have convinced 5% or more of the local population to join you in your civil disobedience. Even a highly vocal 1% would creat such a situation that makes it easier for the rest of the population to also disobey, because it would create a situation such that "Well they can't punish all of us."

But for many people we need to get to that point first. Many of us, do have things to loose. My first responsibility as a Christian is to be a good husband, after serving God. Amy isn't quite as onboard w/ disobeying as I am, and my first responsibility is to love, cherish, and protect her.  That's great that you're wife is fully on board in the disobeying too, and doesn't mind getting thrown in jail along w/ you. But I have other priorities.

I'm more interested in Thorough's version of civil disobedience then Ghandi's. I'm  more interested in disobeying unjust or stupid laws when I can get away w/ it, then making a stand.

In NH, I plan to make most of my money in the underground economy, (you know, odd jobs, performing labor for gold or silver instead of money, etc.) so it's not traceble tobegin w. Or running my own business and then just not declairing the money. But it's difficult to work for somebody else formally w/out a paper trail and/or SSN number. Ghosting myself will be a lot easier once I own my home and property outright and I'm not answerable to an emloyer. But I need to get to that point first.

When I build my underground house, it'll be unconventional and hence assessed at a much lower price by the city then a standard home.  Hence when I start refusing to pay property taxes, it won't be that much that I'm not paying to begin w/. It minamizes the ammount of trouble I get into should the state choose to use force.

I guess I'm somewhere in between you and LilDog. I don't have a problem w/ disobeying -- if I think it's going to work, that I have a chance to get away w/ it, AND that it's actually going to do some good in bringing down the system.

But the consciousness of the locals needs to be raised to oppose government force to begin w/

Tracy

[Kat Kanning]

More propaganda.      

Dirty Dozen Tax Scams

By Dayana Yochim Wed Feb 8, 9:12 AM ET

And you thought your W-2 was evidence of highway robbery. At least the taxman operates legally. The
Internal Revenue Service just rolled out its list of 12 top tax scams, which, coincidentally, deflects some of the consumer ire about parting with huge chunks our paychecks this time of year.
ADVERTISEMENT

As always, the most popular ploys falsely promise to reduce or altogether eliminate your tax bill. This year, a few new crafty schemes have made the most wanted list. "Zero wages" and the mysterious "Form 843 tax abatement" both encourage filers to falsify information on legitimate IRS forms in the hopes that a blizzard of paperwork will distract the Feds.

If headaches, fines, prison, and steep penalties are your idea of fun, then go ahead and sign on the shady dotted line. If not, heed the IRS warnings and avoid this year's 12 top offenses:

1. Zero Wages: A taxpayer submits "corrected" forms showing little or no wages for the year and blames the reporting company for refusing to issue a corrected Form W-2.

2. Form 843 Tax Abatement: The filer submits a form that requests abatement for previously assessed taxes by citing (falsely) an Internal Revenue Code program called Substitute for Return Program.

3. Phishing: Scammers pose as IRS agents or other legitimate financial institutions in order to get taxpayers to reveal personal and financial information. More consumers fall for this around this time of year, because the emails claim to notify filers of an audit or an outstanding refund. FYI: The IRS doesn't email. Anyone.

4. Zero Return: Consumers are told to enter all zeros on their federal income tax filing, or to do it on an amended return, in the hopes that the IRS will ignore the original return where income was accurately reported.

5. Trust Misuse: Move your money into a trust and your taxes will be lower -- or so say the scamsters who promote this method. The problem is that sometimes this is a legitimate financial planning strategy. The IRS encourages taxpayers to seek the advice of a trusted money pro (emphasis on "trusted") before taking the bait.

6. Frivolous Arguments: Someone clearly didn't get a passing grade in American History. Claiming all sorts of shortcomings with the 16th Amendment (the congressional power to lay and collect income taxes), the Fifth Amendment (right against self-incrimination), and the Fourth Amendment (the right to privacy), and hiding behind false arguments, will land you in court.

7. Return Preparer Fraud: An unscrupulous preparer may have done you wrong (charging inflated fees, skimming from client refunds), but unfortunately, you the taxpayer are on the hook for any wrongdoing done in your name.

8. Credit Counseling Agencies: The IRS is cracking down on debt counseling organizations who tout their tax-exempt status and make false promises of fixing credit ratings.

9. Abuse of Charitable Organizations and Deductions: Improperly shielding income and assets from taxation is a big no-no. Examples of this, according to the IRS, include moving assets to a tax-exempt supporting organization or donor-advised fund while still maintaining control over the money.

10. Offshore Transactions: It sounds so sexy -- the Bahamian-Suisse Banc Account. But illegally hiding income in offshore banks or brokerages -- or couching such transactions with the use of wire transfers, foreign trusts, employee leasing schemes, or private annuities -- is against the law.

11. Employment Tax Evasion: Scamsters who tell employers not to withhold federal income tax, or other employment taxes from wages, are incorrectly interpreting Section 861, says the IRS. It's not just the employer who gets in trouble. Employees are still required to pay their personal taxes if they've had nothing withheld from their wages. Ouch.

12. "No Gain" Deduction: Income? What income? Using Schedule A's "Other Miscellaneous Deductions," filers deduct the entire amount of their adjusted gross income (AGI) with an attached statement that claims "No Gain Realized." To which the IRS responds: "No Can Do."

What should you do if you fall prey to any of these scams? Yup, more paperwork. If you suspect tax fraud, use IRS Form 3949-A, Information Referral. You can download it at IRS.gov or by calling (800) 829-3676.

The surest way to legally avoid Uncle Sam's wrath is, well, death. Even then, the act of dying triggers a whole new set of tax issues for those you left behind.

[Russell Kanning]

Tracy .... don't you think you should pay or not based on whether that is obeying God and taking care of your wife? Whether you can get away with it shouldn't be in the equation.
If you think it is proper to defy the government, then do it and let others follow.
Thoreau went to jail even though he guess he spent most of his time trying to avoid the governments grasp.

[Russell Kanning]

Maybe I am also phrasing it wrong. I am thinking the question should be:

"Is it wrong for me to pay Federal taxes and support this evil government?"

[tracysaboe]

Maybe I am also phrasing it wrong. I am thinking the question should be:

"Is it wrong for me to pay Federal taxes and support this evil government?"

Yes. However, have you read Ephesians lately?

I have a Biblical duty to love, protect, and provide for my wife. That takes precidence over everything else short of serving God directly.

God hasn't directly commanded me to stop paying my taxes, and Jesus said he didn't come to abolish the earthly forms of government (at least not for the last time he came.) Hence, the Bible is a bit silent about whether or not paying taxes is evil and whether or not a Christian should do it.

It's pretty clear about the husbands loving their wifes thing.

So hence, in order to follow this other commandment about husbands loving their wifes, and cherishing and nurturing them. I do need to gauge the lilkelyhood of getting caught as part of my decision about whether I'll pay out or not. Because my 1st priority is to God, and my 2nd is to my wife. If I can maintain those two while disobeying and not paying taxes, then I will -- if not, I need to do a risk/reward assessment.

Tracy

[Russell Kanning]

Well Tracy if you think you should pay taxes .....then you should.
I don't think it would be right for me to pay ...... and I don't see how I or Kat are in any more danger if I don't.
I am just discussing it with people. I just hate the idea of people supporting this evil government because of fear of the feds.

I was just thinking ..... if you had lived in Germany from say 1930- on ...... would there have come a time when paying taxes would have been wrong? If so, when would that be?

[tracysaboe]

If it became clear that I was in relatively the same amount of danger for myself and my wife by paying taxes then not paying, then I wouldn't pay. Even if it was only a small amount more danger by not paying then paying, I wouldn't pay. But it don't see that as the case currently.

It's good that you're talking about it though. I'm just not sure that at this point, marterdom is actually something that would work to make change.

Tracy

[Russell Kanning]

In this particular case .... noone is becoming a martyr.

I haven't even heard from the IRS in 8 years.

[KBCraig]

How about just not paying because there is no law that says you have to?

There may be some validity to the claim that no law defines individuals as "taxpayers" or forces them to pay or file. The problem with pursuing that line is that the IRS says there is, the AUSA will say there is, the judge will say there is, and even if the jury were allowed to hear the claim (not likely), they'll fall back on "everyone knows!" that you have to pay income tax.

You can be right, but still be in prison.

Kevin

[tracysaboe]

You will.

Quite often they wait 7-8 years while they're building up a case before they get you. And now that you're being vocal about it, you're even a bigger target.

Tracy

[Fluff and Stuff]

You will.

Quite often they wait 7-8 years while they're building up a case before they get you. And now that you're being vocal about it, you're even a bigger target.

Tracy

It is hard to build up a case when someone makes very little money, owns very little, and moves around a lot.

[Dreepa]

Russell's moving?

Moving party?