Smoking in public

[Dreepa]

I don't smoke.  I don't like to be around smoking.  However I have been helping in the fight to STOP HB 1177.  I strongly believe in property rights as well as people choosing not to go into places that smoke.
It is all about choice to me.

So here is my question.
What do you think of smoking in public.  Libertarians usually say do what you please as long as it doesn't affect others.

But if you smoke in public it does affect others.

Just trying to start a friendly debate. 

* by public I mean out in the open on the street.

[Tunga]

Tunga gets sick from tobbacco smoke.
 
But he still thinks the State should "Butt Out!" where private business is concerned. Let the customers vote with thier wallets.

[Dreepa]

Tunga should read.  Because this says public... I will edit my post to reflect a sense of what I mean.

[Happy Dude]

But if you smoke in public it does affect others.

Yeah right. And the War is over. Good grief

[Tunga]

Tunga should read.  Because this says public... I will edit my post to reflect a sense of what I mean.

Doh!

But isn't a bar a public place?

Smoking on the sidewalk should only be against the law if tobacco is too. Better?

[Dreepa]

I guess this won't be an intelligent debate.

[Happy Dude]

I guess this won't be an intelligent debate.

I guess your right there.

[Thespis]

Never fear, Dreepa, here's your intelligent debate.

Under the assumption, which I'll refute shortly, that second hand smoke is harmful, the only way you'd be harmed in an open air situation is if you're inhaling the smoke directly from the mouth and cigarette of the smoker. You'd have to be practically kissing. The reason is because the smoke disperses the second it enters the air. Yeah, you may catch the smell from behind someone, but at that point you're hardly getting any particles of the smoke. The reason people go after bars and restaurants is that you're in an inclosed space, the smoke can't escape easily.

Now, as for the assumption that second hand smoke is harmful, here's some reading for you:

http://www.cato.org/dailys/9-28-98.html

http://www.davehitt.com/facts/index.html

[Pat McCotter]

The solution to pollution is dilution.

[tracysaboe]

2ndly, in a libertarian society the sidewalks and roads would be owned by private entities instead of the government, and they'd be able to make their own rules.

For the unclaimed and (relativily small amount of) common property that would probably exist in a stateless society. If a person actually believed that the person next to them smoking was damaging, I guess they could sue them. Stuff like that would be largely decided on a case-by case basis untill the local area to the unclaimed or common property developed standardizations.

For the most part though, if somebody's smoking outside -- and you don't like it -- don't stand next to them. But as I said, in a free society this issue would be largly moot because most roads/sidewalks, etc would be privately owned and opporated.

Tracy

[Happy Dude]

The solution to pollution is dilution.

Thats right then. Move to the country. This thread is the most stupided thread I have ever seen in my life.

That is all we fucking need in this country is more social police and control.

[1984IsNow]

I don't smoke.
I've never tried a cigarette.
They basically disgust me.
Now, here is the dilemma.  I am all for people being able to do what they want, but it changes when you are not the only one effected.  And granted it was shown that second-hand smoke disperses through wider areas, with many people smoking in one room, I'm sure there would be some sort of accumulation.  Both of my parents smoke, so I know how much second hand smoke can really just make you feel gross, from 18 years of it.
That's really the main reason that I am generally against smoking being allowed in public places.  HOWEVER.  Even if it is my personal wish that this could take place, that doesn't make it legal to do so.
If we were going to stop allowing people to smoke in public places on the basis that it's hurting other people, we'd also have to shut down all the factories that pump gaseous death into the air.  We'd have to ban all the SUV's that raise our ground-level-ozone level to the point where it can literally kill our lung tissue.
These things aren't going to happen, therefore taking away the right for smokers to smoke in public places would be completely unfair.

[FrankChodorov]

If we were going to stop allowing people to smoke in public places on the basis that it's hurting other people, we'd also have to shut down all the factories that pump gaseous death into the air.  We'd have to ban all the SUV's that raise our ground-level-ozone level to the point where it can literally kill our lung tissue.

all we would have to do is not allow more than the sustainable yield of using the sky as a sink and sell those as annual permits to pollute up to that amount.

return the money collected directly to all the owners equally.

now the costs to operate a SUVs will reflect the true costs (no more negative externalities) and will give rise to alternative, sustainable transportation.

[BaRbArIaN]

all we would have to do is not allow more than the sustainable yield of using the sky as a sink and sell those as annual permits to pollute up to that amount.
return the money collected directly to all the owners equally.

           Gee, since you claim the owners are everybody, wouldn't that take a global government with monopolistic force?   It wouldn't do for a small subset of utopian Georgists living in a commune somewhere to enact such rules, as they have no jurisdiction for air that comes from upwind.

now the costs to operate a SUVs will reflect the true costs (no more negative externalities) and will give rise to alternative, sustainable transportation.

           I.e., tax the people into behavior the collective approves of (with the implied threat of force if you don't pay of course, no?).

What part of all these ideas supports claims of non-socialism again?   Hey if I promise not to smoke can I get out of "land rent" fees to own my own property again, or are humans to have that right that exists now permanently stripped in your utopian vision?  (puff....inhale)

[Pat McCotter]

(puff....inhale)

Hey, you better not exhale that stuff here!