FTL_Ian's Personal Attacks on CNHT

[tracysaboe]

If we completely open the borders, I think that you would find yourself in the middle of such a rapid flow of immigration, all political sovreignty and economic stability would collapse.

Yea :icon_dance:

Russell that's not a good thing. We're talking, setting the tate for violent civil war as government becomes unable to pander to everybody and everybody wants their part of the loot. Economic collapse is also not a good thing -- epseically when the UN will be our "saviours."

Tracy

[Russell Kanning]

Consider the opinions that most immigrants hold about government. We'd probably quickly be overrun by international socialism.

We are already there my friend. Random immigrants from mehico will be better than Trent Lott, Hillary and Kennedy.

[Russell Kanning]

Why do so many people assume that a breakup of our current power structure would mean death and destruction?

[sandm000]

because, for some reason, people equate anarchy with bedlam or chaos.

[tracysaboe]

because, for some reason, people equate anarchy with bedlam or chaos.

No we just understand that their's too different types of Anarchy. Political vs Market.

A civil war being fought over who gets to control the government is political anarchy. People fighting over who gets to use the reigns of power. Mass democracy coupled with unfettered immigration is a good recipee for for that.

Go read some Hoppe. Read "Democracy: The God who Failed."

Tracy

[citizen_142002]

Russell, are you say that if every government agency miraculously disappeared overnight, there would not be chaos, violence, and theft? I mean as it stands today, do you think that everyone posseses the kind of ethics that a civil stateless society would require.

I don't think so at all. People aren't used to policing themselves in our society, and total sudden anarchy would not be warm or fuzzy in reality.

[AlanM]

Russell, are you say that if every government agency miraculously disappeared overnight, there would not be chaos, violence, and theft? I mean as it stands today, do you think that everyone posseses the kind of ethics that a civil stateless society would require.

I don't think so at all. People aren't used to policing themselves in our society, and total sudden anarchy would not be warm or fuzzy in reality.

There is violence and theft in this heavily governed land of ours. Will more government eliminate it, perhaps?
In times of upheaval it has been shown throughout history that most people treat each other well, and often band together to help each other. Will there be gangs of thugs? Most likely, but there are gangs of thugs right now, Hell's Angels, Cripps(?), IRS, FBI, FEMA.

[tracysaboe]

Russell, are you say that if every government agency miraculously disappeared overnight, there would not be chaos, violence, and theft? I mean as it stands today, do you think that everyone posseses the kind of ethics that a civil stateless society would require.

I don't think so at all. People aren't used to policing themselves in our society, and total sudden anarchy would not be warm or fuzzy in reality.

There would be initially. But the free market adjusts to changes very rapidly and it wuoldn't be long before private competing security and insurence companies allong with a higher degree of personal responsibility and self defence would take over.

Their would be a "market correction." but with-in a few months most people will have adjusted to their new found freedom.

Your argument is essentially the same argument that "Communism shouldn't have ended because Poland and Checkeslovacia turned into chaos after it did because they didn't know how to handle their freedom."

I want freedom now. I don't believe in these Republican "gradualism" plans because they never work. And right after some crises the plan goes by the way-side and government just gets bigger.

Even in your worst case scenario of warlords and other governments, at least they'd be competing with each other again and most people I think would still be able to live their lives and ignore the bullies - just like they ignore the institutionalized ones now.

Tracy

[FTL_Ian]

When the Puerto Rican govt shutdown for over a week recently, the only "chaos" was from the govt employees protesting to get their jobs back.

[ravelkinbow]

When the Puerto Rican govt shutdown for over a week recently, the only "chaos" was from the govt employees protesting to get their jobs back.

And in New Orleans, prior to the gun confiscation even...there was mass robberies and rapes.  Not everyone has respect and values, unfortunately

[Russell Kanning]

Russell, are you say that if every government agency miraculously disappeared overnight, there would not be chaos, violence, and theft? I mean as it stands today, do you think that everyone posseses the kind of ethics that a civil stateless society would require.

I would recommend some light reading ..... say everything by tolstoy after 1885.
When Jesus said "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies" .... was he being naive or showing us a better way to live?

[FTL_Ian]

And in New Orleans, prior to the gun confiscation even...there was mass robberies and rapes.  Not everyone has respect and values, unfortunately

Not valid.  New Orleans was not an example of absence of government.  It was an example of abundance of government.  All the "law abiding" people had left for the most part, so that left two competing gangs:  the "criminals" and the "police".

In fact, there was video footage of cops looting Walmart, and allegations that cops and national guardsmen were raping.

[ravelkinbow]

And in New Orleans, prior to the gun confiscation even...there was mass robberies and rapes.  Not everyone has respect and values, unfortunately

Not valid.  New Orleans was not an example of absence of government.  It was an example of abundance of government.  All the "law abiding" people had left for the most part, so that left two competing gangs:  the "criminals" and the "police".

In fact, there was video footage of cops looting Walmart, and allegations that cops and national guardsmen were raping.

It is valid, there was no true police presents as you said they where stealing, no one was looking out for anyone...there where some lawabiding citizens trying before their firearms where taken away...however in the state of confusion the criminals came out in full force and looted, raped, and robbed with no one standing in there way.
It was total anarchy and many people suffered and died.

[Lex]

It is valid, there was no true police presents as you said they where stealing, no one was looking out for anyone...there where some lawabiding citizens trying before their firearms where taken away...however in the state of confusion the criminals came out in full force and looted, raped, and robbed with no one standing in there way.
It was total anarchy and many people suffered and died.

Please check out:

http://www.mises.org/story/1934
http://www.mises.org/story/1902
http://www.mises.org/story/1908

[FTL_Ian]

It is valid, there was no true police presents as you said they where stealing, no one was looking out for anyone...there where some lawabiding citizens trying before their firearms where taken away...however in the state of confusion the criminals came out in full force and looted, raped, and robbed with no one standing in there way.
It was total anarchy and many people suffered and died.

Your first sentence's spelling errors make it very difficult to understand.  I think you're trying to say there were no police.  When in fact, that's virtually all there was.  There were New Orleans police, police from outside agencies, state police, and even the national guard.  If the police were actually useful, they should have had everything under control, but they cannot, because they are a centrally controlled, useless bureaucracy.  Not to mention corrupt and dangerous, which is why the cops were looting.  They are the biggest gang in New Orleans, and effectively "above the law".