Debate: Voluntaryist society vs. Libertarian society

[Kat Kanning]

Listening to that Charles Murray interview (http://www.annonline.com/cevents/RAMhurl.cgi?pnm=audio.annonline.com:7070&date=970224), I was struck by how much my thinking has been changing from having read a kid's book to my daughter:  Princess Navina Visits Voluntaria (http://www.lfb.com/index.php?deptid=&parentid=&stocknumber=FN8603&page=1&itemsperpage=24).  The book describes how a completely voluntary society could work.  I tried to find something online that described something similar, but didn't find anything spectacular.  There was this book:

http://www.independent.org/publications/books/book_summary.asp?bookID=17

and I liked this article:

http://www.voluntaryist.com/action/vol_resistance.php

and many other articles on voluntaryist.com.

Murray was discussing what limited uses government is needed for.  My question is, is government necessary at all?  Why or why not?

[pascal.belanger]

Anarchy is only possible if every one is participative will balancing logic and empathy
to other but no one thought of a viable alternative do you want to hear mine?

[nooneimportant]

All individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose. --Libertarian Party National Platform

I'm a rational anarchist. I believe that concepts such as 'state' and 'society' and 'government' have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals. I believe that it is impossible to shift blame, share blame, distribute blame; as blame, guilt, responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and nowhere else. But being rational, I knows that not all individuals hold my evaluations, so I try to live perfectly in an imperfect world, aware that my effort will be less than perfect yet undimayed by self-knowledge of self-failure. --Robert A. Heinlein

Rational anarchism is my statement of intention to mind my own business, and not to interest myself in yours beyond what is welcome, mannerly, and appropriate to our relationship, because I expect the same courtesy from you. We will only care about each other when our relationship is peaceful, and it is not a peaceful act to care to the extent of violating another person's boundaries. --Cat Farmer

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. --Robert A. Heinlein

[Grunt]

"The free society will always eclipse the unfree one; for while totalitarianism may forbid the bad, it can never compel the good -- something which arises spontaneously among free men." -- John Bryant

[wdg3rd]

Anarchy is only possible if every one is participative will balancing logic and empathy
to other but no one thought of a viable alternative do you want to hear mine?

An armed society is a polite society.  Robert Anson Heinlein

Tell us your alternative. 

[intergraph19]

Government is necessary.  I wish it were not, but it is.  There has to be some central force that can take care of those who would pray on the weak, both inside our own borders, and in the world.  We have to maintain a strong military in order to survive as a nation in the current global climate and only the Fed can do a good job with that for the simple reason that the military must be unified under one central command. 

A good example is the old west really.  There were some places that were run by outlaws because there was nothing else governing the area well enough.  Yes, if the people in those communities had really fought back, it would have been one thing, but human nature needs to be taken into consideration when one thinks about government systems.  Human nature is why Socialism doesn't work and hence, why anarchy doesn't work either.  There has to be a balance in it. 

[Kat Kanning]

Government is necessary.  I wish it were not, but it is.  There has to be some central force that can take care of those who would pray on the weak, both inside our own borders, and in the world.

The problem I see is that the government IS the force that prays on the weak!  It is inevitable that this be so.  No private individual or organization can attain the massive power of government to wreck our lives. 

BTW, Germany did not dare attack Switzerland during the 2nd world war because every danged Swiss citizen was armed.

[Russell Kanning]

A good example is the old west really.

Not to take away from most of what you were saying, but I think that the violence and mayhem in the old west is mostly exaggerated and taught to us from movies. I think it was more like Warren's quote about Tonopah NV. It is still very much that way in small backwoods places out west - The people are free and safe, because the bad guys are worried about being shot by the peaceful citizens.

[intergraph19]

Government is necessary.  I wish it were not, but it is.  There has to be some central force that can take care of those who would pray on the weak, both inside our own borders, and in the world.

The problem I see is that the government IS the force that prays on the weak!

Of course it is right now, it's too big.  The balance has not been properly maintained.  It need to be reduced a great deal, I'd be the last to argue with shrinking the over sized bag of corruption and power grubbing.  It can get too small as to be ineffectual.  The trick is to find that sweet spot between the two and then maintain it through education and constant adjustment.

[intergraph19]

A good example is the old west really.

Not to take away from most of what you were saying, but I think that the violence and mayhem in the old west is mostly exaggerated and taught to us from movies. I think it was more like Warren's quote about Tonopah NV. It is still very much that way in small backwoods places out west - The people are free and safe, because the bad guys are worried about being shot by the peaceful citizens.

I realize a great deal was exagerated, but there is a kernal of truth to it as well.  There were some problems with gangs running some areas for a time.  Many people were willing to fight, but there were those who were appeazers as well, it's part of human nature, just look at France.

[Russell Kanning]

...just look at France.

That one works for so many issues

[Russell Kanning]

I prefer no government

[intergraph19]

I prefer no government

I would prefer it not be needed as well, but so many people suck...

...just look at France.

That one works for so many issues

LMAO  so very very true....

[Russell Kanning]

The people that suck seem to be attracted to goverment positions

[Lloyd Danforth]