• Welcome to New Hampshire Underground.
 

News:

Please log in on the special "login" page, not on any of these normal pages. Thank you, The Procrastinating Management

"Let them march all they want, as long as they pay their taxes."  --Alexander Haig

Main Menu

New England Secession

Started by YeahItsMeJP, April 27, 2006, 12:06 PM NHFT

Previous topic - Next topic

YeahItsMeJP

There is going to be a convention in August in Cambridge, MA to discuss New England Secession. It is being sponsored by the Liberty Tree Society and Massachusetts Sons of Liberty so far, if any other groups (hint hint) want to co-sponsor, let me know. I'll post the details soon.


aries

I support a New Hampshire secession.

The rest of New England seems like a bunch of socialist liberals.

tracysaboe

The next step then would be to abolish the confederacy.

Because
I would want NH to be completely autonomous -- at least politically.

TRacy

citizen_142002

I'm with Jim on this. I support most independence movements in North America. If a socialist independence movement succeeds, then those are socialists with whom more free states do not have to share a system.
A true confederacy usually implies the voluntary participation of sovereign member states. It is just a way to facilitate cooperation. If that's what's meant by confederation, then I support it.

I believe that if one New England state goes the rest will follow. I would probably prefer to see confederation among the northern New England states. Even though I don't agree with their social legislation, I think that the people of Maine and Vermont generally have much more in common with the people of New Hampshire, than do the people in Mass,CT, and RI. That is of course generally speaking.
Let's not forget that an independent Quebec is a more likely scenario in the short term future than an independent New England. Canada's provinces harbor stronger independence movements than any US state.

tracysaboe

Except confederations always consolidate power. you know, the way the original AofC got "consolidated" by the constitution, and the way the Constitution's been consolidated out of existence.

Confederations are evil, and should be viewed w/ suspision even under the most perfect paper documents to "garentee" independence.

No. Complete independence w/o even any entangling aliances or confederations, etc.

Tracy

AlanM

I agree with Tracy. Trade agreements can be made. Don't need any formal confederation.

FrankChodorov

confederations are quintessentially part and parcel of the historical anarchist movement...

YeahItsMeJP

I'm glad to see the conversation this has spurred!

So, how many folks think they'll go to the convention?

citizen_142002

Confederations can only consolidate power if the member states allow consolidation. The AOC didn't gradually slide into being the US Constitution, the articles were effectively trashed and a federal framework was drafted.

It took the vast majority of the state legislatures to approve this essentially new form of government. If a NE confederation were to come into being, it would almost certainly posess a charter which would allow any individual state to leave the confederation at any time. That way if 4 of six members wanted to enact legislation or alter government in a way that was not desirable in the eyes of the other two, the disgruntled states could leave unmolested.

Despite the differences between states, I think you'll always find a certain sense of fraternity between all the states that are currently members of the union, regardless of what political bonds will or will not bind them in the future.

tracysaboe

The original AofC charter said that it needed unanamous consent from all thirteen colonies before being changed. Yet the constitution went into effect and the Central government started aggregating those new powers WAY before that last third of states ratified it.

The Constitution was illegal. Plain and simple. But yet it happened.

If the confederation hadn't existed in the first place, it would have been much more difficult for the AoC to get usurped.

Solution -- don't have an AoC in the first place. The rules in the AoC were very explicit. That didn't stop the power mongers.

Moral: Don't trust confederations.

Tracy

citizen_142002

But you shouldn't hold the confederation responsible for that tracy. Like you said, it was the power mongers who usurped the confederation. Even if no league existed the power hungry would have still have sought a way to centralize government among the States. The majority of states supported the constitution, and they would likely have federalized with or without the articles.

Let's face it, the states were taking their time in paying back that war debt. I think that the federal power of taxation would have been an acceptable solution, but it should have been put into place only for a set period of time.

Gray

I have been formulating some ideas regarding "organizing" the communication and education of state sovereignty.  It really would prove to be a useful tool. 

The problem is I have too many projects going at the same time!

I will definately share more information as I progress further with this undertaking.

Thrive!

tracysaboe

Quote from: citizen_142002 on May 03, 2006, 02:09 PM NHFT
But you shouldn't hold the confederation responsible for that tracy. Like you said, it was the power mongers who usurped the confederation. Even if no league existed the power hungry would have still have sought a way to centralize government among the States. The majority of states supported the constitution, and they would likely have federalized with or without the articles.

Let's face it, the states were taking their time in paying back that war debt. I think that the federal power of taxation would have been an acceptable solution, but it should have been put into place only for a set period of time.

They wouldn't have had the pretence of a constitutional convention, if the AOC didn't exist in the first place.

Maybe they would have found another way -- but it would have been more difficult.

Tracy

citizen_142002

Good to see the Pine Tree flag, Gray. Which state are you in?

Gray

Quote from: citizen_142002 on May 10, 2006, 05:15 PM NHFT
Good to see the Pine Tree flag, Gray. Which state are you in?

Massachusetts.